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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88154 | ||
Greetings Joe! Thanks for the response! I remember our discussions in the past and I recall that you and I pretty much see eye to eye on this point. However, John seems to deny that man can make any free choices whatsoever, including Adam and Eve. I would agree with how you summarized the creation. Of course nothing took God by surprise! I even believe that there are times when He overrides human will to accomplish His plans. For instance, some bad guy might try to kill me or my family and God zaps him! :-) I would never seek to imply that man has unlimited freedom of will. But, I do believe that God has made us free moral agents. So, Adam and Eve sinned, not because God 'made' them do it, but because they choose to do it. The reason I started this particular topic with John though is that he appeared to by saying that every choice and action is a direct result of God's will. By the way, I was reading about Jehu the other day. If I recall correctly, there was an interesting passage where he had some people buried at a particular location because he remembered God's prophecy against that family and he wanted to make sure it happened like God said. :-) What an example of human and Divine wills working in harmony! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Does John Reformed REALLY believe .....? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 89260 | ||
Egads! "However, John seems to deny that man can make any free choices whatsoever, including Adam and Eve." (Tim Moran; ID# 88154) NOT SO! If I gave you that impression, it was a failure in my communication skills or your mis-understanding of what I believe. If I said once, I've said it a dozen times...man sins out of the evil desires of his own heart. The fact that the working out of these sinful deeds is in acordance with God's eternal plan, neither absolves man's guilt in sinning nor does it make God the author of sin. (Acts 4) I do not appreciate having my beliefs mis-represented. But perhaps, you had asked me first, if this is what I believed, but I missed it (unlikely, but possible). If on the other hand you merly assumed this was my position, I think an apology may be in order. John |
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3 | Does John Reformed REALLY believe .....? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 89267 | ||
Greetings John! I knew you would read the post and correct me if I was wrong my friend! ;-) I did note that this is what you 'seemed' to believe, so if I was in error I apologize. However, while I understand your position concerning the 'free' choices of fallen man, I have never have gotten a straight answer about Adam and Eve. They had no fallen nature, so on what basis did they choose to sin? My bet is that you will not say that they freely choose to do so, because then God would not have been sovereign in their choice! :-) However, I would disagree that man 'freely' choosing to sin based upon an inherited sin nature makes him guilty. I used the programmer's illustration before. If I write a program and script it so that it has to fail, how can I blame the program for failing? If we, as human beings have no choice but to sin because of Adam and Eve's sin, then how could we possibly be held responsible? Under my theological system, no one is held responsible for an inherited sin nature. God atoned for all sin at the cross. We are only held responsible for our sin, and by the grace of God are all drawn by Him, so that no one is without recourse. I believe in a God who so loved the world that He died for all men and calls all men to repentance, a God who has made it possible for all men to be saved, if we accept the free gift offered to us. To me, that is 'good news' indeed. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Does John Reformed REALLY believe .....? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 89283 | ||
Dear Tim, You were wrong friend Tim, and of course, I do accept your apology. Been there; done that and even bought the T-shirt! "However, while I understand your position concerning the 'free' choices of fallen man, I have never have gotten a straight answer about Adam and Eve. They had no fallen nature, so on what basis did they choose to sin?" Boy! For a fellow that does'nt like the merry-go-round, you sure buy a lot of tickets. Perhaps, one of these times you'll grab the brass ring! :- ) Being you have already read my poor scribblings, and they have caused more confusion than understanding, this time I will call on John Piper to elucidate my post on Adam and Eve by holding forth on God's two wills. These criticisms are not new. Jonathan Edwards wrote 250 years ago, "The Arminians ridicule the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God, or, more properly expressed, the distinction between the decree and the law of God; because we say he may decree one thing, and command another. And so, they argue, we hold a contrariety in God, as if one will of his contradicted another." But in spite of these criticisms the distinction stands, not because of a logical or theological deduction, but because it is inescapable in the Scriptures. The most careful exegete writing in Pinnock's Case for Arminianism concedes the existence of two wills in God. I. Howard Marshall applies his exegetical gift to the Pastoral Epistles. Concerning 1 Timothy 2:4 he says, To avoid all misconceptions it should be made clear at the outset that the fact that God wishes or wills that all people should be saved does not necessarily imply that all will respond to the gospel and be saved. We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and both of these things can be spoken of as God's will. The question at issue is not whether all will be saved but whether God has made provision in Christ for the salvation of all, provided that they believe, and without limiting the potential scope of the death of Christ merely to those whom God knows will believe. In this chapter I would now like to undergird Marshall's point that "we must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen, and [that] both of these things can be spoken of as God's will." Perhaps the most effective way to do this is to begin by drawing attention to the way Scripture portrays God willing something in one sense which he disapproves in another sense. Then, after seeing some of the biblical evidence, we can step back and ponder how to understand this in relation to God's saving purposes. I hope this helps you tosee why calvinists can hold both the doctrine of God's Sovereignty and man's responsiblity at the same time and yet see harmony rather than discord. My grand-kids are begging me to get off the computer! God Bless Tim. I look forward to your reply. Grandpa John |
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