Results 1 - 14 of 14
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | ne14pool | 88408 | ||
Tim, You had said, that If Christ did not draw, no one could be saved. Which I agree with. Then you went on to quote John 12:32 which says that Christ will draw all men to Himself when He is lifted up. Which I interpret to mean men of "all types" (Jew and Gentile) not all men individually but collectively. I say that because if you believe that Christ draws all men to himself, then all men must be saved because in John 6:44 Jesus proclaimed that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Notice that same one that is drawn by the Father is also raised up on the last day. Keep in mind the context of this verse, it is salvation. So if you hold to the belief that God draws all men (individually to himself, then you must also believe that those that are drawn will be raised to eternal life with God (John 6:44) In Christ...Doug |
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2 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88419 | ||
Greetings Doug! Not to blow you off my friend, but I have answered this particular question probably 30 times! :-) If you want, you can search for my username (Morant61) and 'John 6:44' to see my response. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88485 | ||
Greetings Tim, I see you have another debate going on, I'm wondering if you forgot about me or if I have offended you? It's regarding my last post to which I have not received a response yet. Here it is again: ------------------------------------------------ Subject: Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? Note: the response to this post, Note: Greetings Tim, I'm reposting my second paragraph because it seems that you have overlooked this. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. Nor does it say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." WHERE is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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4 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88500 | ||
Greetings Phil! No my friend, you have not offended me in any way at all. I have just been extremely busy lately! :) The problem that I see with your attempt to connect 1 Sam. 28 and Ex. 22:18 is that 1 Sam. 28 never actually says that the witch brought Samuel up. So, we would have to speculate that the witch did it. If we go by what the passage actually says, then the spirit was Samuel. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88534 | ||
It wasn't an attempt. They are very well connected. Saul had obeyed the commandment of God in putting away the witches. That's why they were in hiding. Is that speculation? I thought it was clear in this verse 1 Sam 28:11 " Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel." It would be speculation to say that it was someone else. She specified "Who should I bring up" (READ:I will excercise my devilish practice for your pleasure) Do you see then why I say it couldn't have been Samuel? Your thoughts Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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6 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88540 | ||
Greetings Phil! I don't mean this to be rude my friend, but I seem to be spending an awful lot of time lately defending why Scripture actually means what it says. ;-) I have made my case, so I really don't see any point in continuing on with this particular question. My case is simple. 1 Sam. 28 says that it was Samuel, so I believe it was. Now, if you can provide a verse which says that it wasn't Samuel, I would change my position. Until then, I will stand on what the verse says. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88589 | ||
Dear Tim, I understand where you're coming from. The reason why I have continued thus far is because I used to think like you did. The text says this, the text says that. If we were to continue in that way of thinking, we would have a great problem with Matthew 27:9 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;". We all know that it wasn't Jeremiah that said it but Zechariah 11:12 "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." You can't call the entire bible false because of a slip of the tongue that Matthew had. He was thinking Jeremiah but it was Zechariah that said it. Do we then throw out the bible because of the human errors that are found in it? No, we seek the truth in what the message is. God wants us to think. Remember why he asked Adam "Where are you"! It wasn't that he didn't know where Adam was but he wanted Adam to think about what he was doing. 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost." (emphasis added) The men were inspired to write, not told what to write. I am merely doing what was commanded of me in. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." As I stated before: It could not have been Samuel who was raised up because it was a witch that did it. You cannot say that there is consciousness in death simply because you saw it once in scripture. I believe the reason why you are spending alot of time defending what you believe is because you might be wrong. There is only one truth. For us to find that truth, we must measure the verses with the whole bible. I am not one to be rude and I don't wish to make others feel uncomfortable. If you wish this thread to end then I will move on. If you wish to help me "See the light" then consider what I have said. Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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8 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88592 | ||
Greetings Phil! You have at least explained for me why this particular thread has continued on. We have very different views of the Bible. I don't believe that the Bible simply contains the word of God. I believe it is the word of God. So, every word is important. Thus, when 1 Sam. 28 says that 'Samuel said' something. I believe that Samuel actually said it. The illustration you cite from Mt. 27:9 doesn't justify throwing out the words of the Bible. The quote in Mt. 27:9 seems to be primarily from Zechariah, but it also seems to be from Jeremiah as well (Jer. 19:1-13 and 32:6-9). Matthew may have only mentioned Jeremiah because he was a major prophet. However, to turn Mt. 27:9 into an error because they used a different method of citing sources than we do today would be an error on our part. I could see your point if Jeremiah had nothing to do with the quote, but he does. My concern, if I remember the original context of our thread correctly, is that you are ignoring what the text actually says because you don't want to accept that souls are not asleep, but conscious. I have no problem discussing the issue with you my friend. You have been nothing but polite and cordial. But, if we view Scripture this differently, I'm not sure of the value of such a discussion, because I am always going to take the position that if the text says it, I believe it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88649 | ||
Dear Tim, You wrote: "The illustration you cite from Mt. 27:9 doesn't justify throwing out the words of the Bible. The quote in Mt. 27:9 seems to be primarily from Zechariah, but it also seems to be from Jeremiah as well (Jer. 19:1-13 and 32:6-9). Matthew may have only mentioned Jeremiah because he was a major prophet." I respectfully disagree. Matthew has clearly made a mistake. Now forgive my ignorance (and I feel foolish asking) but what do the verses you quoted have anything even remotely to do with the prophecy that Matthew quotes regarding Jesus being sold for 30 pieces of silver? Matthew is clearly quoting Zechariah 11:12. I don't have a problem with this though. It's what scholars call a "lapsus linguae" (slip of the tongue). I'm not saying that I would throw out the bible because of the errors found in it. It is still the inspired word of God. I recognize that it was man that wrote it, but for it to be in such harmony throughout the years is something I believe must be supernatural. Only God could have inspired these men to write and not have it contradict what he has told other prophets. I bring up the example of Matthew because here is a clear example of what is written being in error with what is true. Jer. 19:1-13 and 32:6-9 both have nothing to do with Messianic prophecy much less, prophecy of Jesus being sold for thirty pieces of silver. I believe the heart of the matter between me having a problem with consciousness in death and you believing in consciousness after death lies with your belief of "verbal inspiration". Which is how we come to this discussion. You also wrote: "However, to turn Mt. 27:9 into an error because they used a different method of citing sources than we do today would be an error on our part. I could see your point if Jeremiah had nothing to do with the quote, but he does." Please enlighten me as to how Jeremiah has something to do with the quote please. Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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10 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88656 | ||
Greetings Phil! It is a well known practice among 1st century Jews that Old Testament quotes were strung together based upon certain key words. In this case, the key words are 'potter' and 'field'. All of the verses I list mention a 'potter' and a 'field'. And, yes, I do believe in 'verbal inspiration'. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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11 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88699 | ||
Dear Tim, ::sniff::sniff:: I smell a copout ;-) j.k. Well, if you want to go by tradition, then it is also a well known fact of Jewish tradition that they held that Moses was "ressurected" a few days after he died,( I think it was three) hence the Jewish New Testament writer Jude talking about Moses and the devil contending over that ressurection. I used this text before to prove that Moses wasn't dead remember? Do you still want to use a well known practice among 1st Century Jews to explain something that to a bible student like you or myself can clearly see is an error? You can't string together a Messianic prophecy with something completely unrelated. I feel as if now you are having a hard time accepting this because it is new to you. (or have I presumed too much?) Like I said Tim, I was just as shocked to learn this fact. All throughout bible history, God has used men to spread his word. Because everything that is human is imperfect we must accept the idea of imperfections and mistakes in the bible. This doesn't change the message! Nor should it bring about any controversy. I believe there are many things that were verbally inspired in the bible like the ten commandments for example but the vessel in which the message was carried is imperfect. God chose imperfect man with his imperfect language to spread his message, not perfect angels. They used the vernacular and examples or sayings of the times that don't make sense today. Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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12 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88724 | ||
Greetings Phil! Would it be a cop out for someone 1,000 years from now to say that it was common for people in our time to use the MLA style of citation as opposed to whatever style is current in their day? Your taking something outside of the Bible and trying to proof a point about Moses. I was taking something in the Bible and showing how it was not uncommon in those days to string together OT passages based upon certain key words. Check out Rom. 9-11 sometime and note all the OT quotes and how most of them have the words 'son' or 'people' in them. There are many other examples of this practice in the Bible. And, no, it's not new to me that people want to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are inspired! :-( But, I reject that position. I believe that the Bible teaches that every word is God breathed, both inerrant and infalliable. God's word is the only rule of faith and practice for us as beleivers. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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13 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88761 | ||
Dear Tim, Just so that I'm clear on what your saying. Your saying that when Matthew writes Matthew 27:9 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;" he really means Jeremiah even though he is directly quoting Zechariah? It seems that your saying he was talking about buying the field with 17 PIECES OF SILVER because God was going to have Israel set free again. That's what your references are referring to. If that were the case, then why would Matthew himself make a connection with Judas selling Jesus out for thirty pieces of silver and saying (I'm paraphrasing) "and when this happened, this was the fullfilment of the prophecy found in Jeremiah that says "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;"? This doesn't add up. I need to blur my vision in order to see it that way. Let's try to come to an agreement on both our parts. Fact#1 Matthew says to look in the book of Jeremiah for this quote. "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;" Fact#2 You look for that quote in the book of Jeremiah and you NEVER find it. Fact#3 If you look in every book in the old testament for that quote, you ONLY find it in the book of Zechariah. Specifically Zechariah 11:12 Am I making this up or can we agree on these three facts? Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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14 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88780 | ||
Greetings Phil! Fact 1: Matthew doesn't say to look in Jeremiah. He says "what was spoken by Jeremiah was fulfilled". I just want to make sure that our facts are precise! ;-) Fact 2: You never find the precise quote from Mt. 27:9-10 in Jeremiah. Fact 3: You also never find the precise quote from Mt. 27:9-10 in Zechariah. The quote from Mt. 27:9-10 is most similar to Zech. 11:12-13, but common words are also found in Jeremiah. Just so we are clear, here is the quote from Mt. alongside Zech. 11:12-13: Mt. 27:9b-10 - "...They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me." Zech. 11:12-13: "I told them, 'If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.' So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter' — the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter." Now, are these two quotes identical? No! Here is what the Bible Knowledge Commentary says about this issue: ********************************* Matthew viewed these events as the fulfillment of a prophecy of Jeremiah. But the prophecy Matthew quoted was primarily from Zechariah, not Jeremiah. There is a close resemblance between Matthew 27:9-10 and Zechariah 11:12-13. But there are also similarities between Matthew’s words and the ideas in Jeremiah 19:1, 4, 6, 11. Why then did Matthew refer only to Jeremiah? The solution to this problem is probably that Matthew had both prophets in mind but only mentioned the “major” prophet by name. (A similar situation is found in Mark 1:2-3, where Mark mentioned the Prophet Isaiah but quoted directly from both Isaiah and Malachi.) In addition, another explanation is that Jeremiah, in the Babylonian Talmud (Baba Bathra 14b), was placed first among the prophets, and his book represented all the other prophetic books. *********************************** Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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