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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Reformer Joe | 88144 | ||
"So, can God God not only tempt Adam and Eve, but ordain the act of sin which they commit?" This goes back to a semantic difference (addressed previously on the forum) in our understanding of the word "ordain." Correct me if I am mistaken, but you seem to hold that God ordaining something means in all cases that God is the most immediate agent in that event coming to pass. That is not our understanding of the term as used in our confessions. Taking the account of the Fall as your chosen example, we would agree that God created Satan knowing he would rebel. He created the world knowing it would become corrupted, and He created the garden knowing it would only be a temporary residence for those created in His image, whom He knew would succumb to the temptation once it was presented to them. He created all of the agents and all of the bait involved in the Fall. Christ knew in eternity past that His incarnation, earthly obedience, and crucifixion, resurrection, and glorification was not "plan B" from a divine perspective. Adam and Eve had an uncorrupted (but corruptible nature) and acted freely against God's revealed will to them, but in doing so did not take God by surprise, nor did they undermine God's eternal plan, which had to have been to redeem humanity (unless we take an open theism view). God did not immediately cause the Fall, nor did He sin. However, I think we both agree that He put everything in place knowing exactly how it would turn out. And that is why the Reformed perspective widens the definition of God's decree and ordination. God has created and governs all things, having already incorporated human and angelic obedience and disobedience into His decree. Another example from my recent Bible study: the Philistines decide to attack Israel precisely when Saul is closing in on David, causing Saul to break off the attack. So should David be thankful to God or the Philistines that he has been preserved? If God did not ordain the sinful actions of the Philistines (i.e. attacking His covenant people), then how can David thank God for sparing him and keeping His promises to him? All throughout Scripture, we see that God ordains sin (and by this I mean SPECIFIC acts of rebellion against God, not just allowing "sin in general") to occur to accomplish His purposes, without sinning Himself. From Absoloms coup d'etat as fulfillment of prophetic judgment against David's adultery, to the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions to chastize and judge his adulterous people, to the very crucifixion of His Son, God's hand was at work through the volitional acts of sinful humans: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." --Acts 2:22-23 Who delivered Jesus over to die? The Jews or God the Father? Humanly speaking, it was those who hated Christ. Divinely speaking, it was precisely according to God's PREDETERMINED plan. Did God the Father kill Jesus? No. Did he ordain that this sin occur in 1st century Judea by means of crucifixion? Absolutely. God doesn't sin, but ordains that the wickedness of men and Satan be used and directed in ways that ultimately give the Lord all the glory. --Joe! --Joe! |
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2 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | flinkywood | 88194 | ||
Good stuff, Joe. God ordains that good and ill work to His glory. As I understand free will, the one thing God can't ordain is our loving obedience. He can lead us to Him, but He deliberately can't make us love Him. He can search the heart (here Hezekia's): 2Ch 32:31 Even in the matter of the envoys of the rulers of Babylon, who sent to him to inquire of the wonder that had happened in the land, God left him alone only to test him, that He might know all that was in his heart." (NASB) He can search for the heart: 2Ch 16:9 "For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His." (NASB) He can harden the heart: Deu 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today." (NASB) Stir up the heart: Ezr 1:1,2 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying: "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah." (NASB) And give the gift of love to the heart: 1 John 4.19 "We love Him, because He first loved us." (KJV). But I can't find any scripture which says that God can make a heart to love Him. Nothing is impossible for God, except, it seems, this one thing. I conclude that He has deliberately limited His omnipotence in this amazing way: that love for Him is up to us. I think you phrase it correctly with, "God doesn't sin, but ordains "that" the wickedness of men and Satan...", the stress being on "that"; God doesn't ordain sin, but "that" sin be used and directed to His glory. Since He loves us, sin is one of His intruments; if He didn't love us, sin would be his handiwork. Love seems to be the answer at heart of the question whether God tempts to sin and ordains the commission of sin. Colin |
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3 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88201 | ||
Dear Colin, You wrote: "As I understand free will, the one thing God can't ordain is our loving obedience. He can lead us to Him, but He deliberately can't make us love Him." Calvinists do not believe that God makes or forces any man to love Him. We take the position that the natural (unregenerate) man has no love for God. The reason we believe this abounds in the pages of Scripture. Look up "heart" in the "search" feature. It's not a pretty picture. So then, if God does not force us to love Him, and we have no natural affection for Him, how is it that anyone ever actually comes to love Him at all? The answer which we "reformed" types offer is that we (christians) love God because He first loved us. Now, one may ask does'nt God love everyone? Yes, He does. But the Lord has a special love for those whom He has chose. The Bible term is those whom He "foreknew". I apologize for not having the time to offer the scriptural foundation for what I have said, but I'm at work (I'm self-employed). If you care to discuss what I have claimed, I'd be delighted. Perhaps Joe could get in on the act. Actually, I taught him everything he knows :-) God Bless, John |
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