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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88126 | ||
Greetings John! Paul argues in Rom. 9 for the Potter's right to use the clay as He sees fit. It does not say that God has the right to sin! James 1:13 says, "When tempted, no one should say, ??God is tempting me.? For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. " So, can God God not only tempt Adam and Eve, but ordain the act of sin which they commit? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Reformer Joe | 88144 | ||
"So, can God God not only tempt Adam and Eve, but ordain the act of sin which they commit?" This goes back to a semantic difference (addressed previously on the forum) in our understanding of the word "ordain." Correct me if I am mistaken, but you seem to hold that God ordaining something means in all cases that God is the most immediate agent in that event coming to pass. That is not our understanding of the term as used in our confessions. Taking the account of the Fall as your chosen example, we would agree that God created Satan knowing he would rebel. He created the world knowing it would become corrupted, and He created the garden knowing it would only be a temporary residence for those created in His image, whom He knew would succumb to the temptation once it was presented to them. He created all of the agents and all of the bait involved in the Fall. Christ knew in eternity past that His incarnation, earthly obedience, and crucifixion, resurrection, and glorification was not "plan B" from a divine perspective. Adam and Eve had an uncorrupted (but corruptible nature) and acted freely against God's revealed will to them, but in doing so did not take God by surprise, nor did they undermine God's eternal plan, which had to have been to redeem humanity (unless we take an open theism view). God did not immediately cause the Fall, nor did He sin. However, I think we both agree that He put everything in place knowing exactly how it would turn out. And that is why the Reformed perspective widens the definition of God's decree and ordination. God has created and governs all things, having already incorporated human and angelic obedience and disobedience into His decree. Another example from my recent Bible study: the Philistines decide to attack Israel precisely when Saul is closing in on David, causing Saul to break off the attack. So should David be thankful to God or the Philistines that he has been preserved? If God did not ordain the sinful actions of the Philistines (i.e. attacking His covenant people), then how can David thank God for sparing him and keeping His promises to him? All throughout Scripture, we see that God ordains sin (and by this I mean SPECIFIC acts of rebellion against God, not just allowing "sin in general") to occur to accomplish His purposes, without sinning Himself. From Absoloms coup d'etat as fulfillment of prophetic judgment against David's adultery, to the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions to chastize and judge his adulterous people, to the very crucifixion of His Son, God's hand was at work through the volitional acts of sinful humans: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." --Acts 2:22-23 Who delivered Jesus over to die? The Jews or God the Father? Humanly speaking, it was those who hated Christ. Divinely speaking, it was precisely according to God's PREDETERMINED plan. Did God the Father kill Jesus? No. Did he ordain that this sin occur in 1st century Judea by means of crucifixion? Absolutely. God doesn't sin, but ordains that the wickedness of men and Satan be used and directed in ways that ultimately give the Lord all the glory. --Joe! --Joe! |
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3 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88154 | ||
Greetings Joe! Thanks for the response! I remember our discussions in the past and I recall that you and I pretty much see eye to eye on this point. However, John seems to deny that man can make any free choices whatsoever, including Adam and Eve. I would agree with how you summarized the creation. Of course nothing took God by surprise! I even believe that there are times when He overrides human will to accomplish His plans. For instance, some bad guy might try to kill me or my family and God zaps him! :-) I would never seek to imply that man has unlimited freedom of will. But, I do believe that God has made us free moral agents. So, Adam and Eve sinned, not because God 'made' them do it, but because they choose to do it. The reason I started this particular topic with John though is that he appeared to by saying that every choice and action is a direct result of God's will. By the way, I was reading about Jehu the other day. If I recall correctly, there was an interesting passage where he had some people buried at a particular location because he remembered God's prophecy against that family and he wanted to make sure it happened like God said. :-) What an example of human and Divine wills working in harmony! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Reformer Joe | 88156 | ||
"I would agree with how you summarized the creation. Of course nothing took God by surprise! I even believe that there are times when He overrides human will to accomplish His plans. For instance, some bad guy might try to kill me or my family and God zaps him! :-)" That is the clearest form of God's intervention. What amazes me about God's providence is the scenario where the bad guy holding your family at gunpoint is hit by the drunk driver coming around the corner. God provides the means for the drunk driver's sin and allows him to sin and orchestrates the events so that his sin is your salvation. "However, John seems to deny that man can make any free choices whatsoever, including Adam and Eve." I'll let him speak for himself, but most in our theological camp do not hold to the initial depravity of Adam and Eve. And, like you, I believe that we all have limited freedom. However, the boundaries and extent of that freedom and what we will actually do with that freedom is already factored in under the umbrella of God's decree. In this way, I believe that God micromanages sin (allowing only those which will ultimately result in His glory). The bondage of the will that I believe in is precisely that: centered on what an unregenerate human being can WANT to do. An atheist can always choose to say no to this sin or that one; what he can't do, in my view, is choose to do that which is good. The Heidelberg catechism gives the best summary (IMO) of what the Bible teaches is a good work: "Question 91. But what are good works? Answer: Only those which proceed from a true faith, are performed according to the law of God, and to his glory; and not such as are founded on our imaginations, or the institutions of men." That is the limitation that I put on the unregenerate. Otherwise, the only thing standing in the sinner's way is means and opportunity and personal preferences and distastes (which themselves stem from a depraved will). And all of these are ordained and managed by God, even the "region of freedom" to carry out one's desires that both sinner and saint receives. --Joe! |
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