Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88049 | ||
Hi Tim, Concerning your first point: I may have confused you a bit by, seemingly, contradicting myself. But it was not deliberate or even an actual contradiction; it was a failure on my part to fully explain myself in the previous post. For that, I apologize. I had said "That God causes all things to work together for good. All means all, does it not? Sin is a thing that occurs in our lives, does it not? Then God has predestined that sin...not for evil...but for good." This is what I was attemting to show. I had used Acts 4 to make my case for God's pre-ordination of "all things". I used Romans 8:28 to make the case that "all things" must include the sins of the saints. As to your following comment, "I say that He HAS died for all and HAS shown mercy to all". John 6 and Romans 9 do not support universal atonement. Furthermore, the scriptures we have been discussing make a strong case for God's absolute soverignty in in all things, including keeping His elect from failling to perservere til the end. Moving on...you said "Secondly, even if your understanding of this verse is correct (in the sense that man's will played no part whatsoever), it still doesn't prove (as you state in your last post) that "EVERYTHING that has or will occur" has preordained. It would only proof the the murder of Christ was preordained, since that is the only act specifically mentioned in this verse. The word 'all' isn't used here! ;-) and "You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." But when have I ever said that man's will played no part whatsoever (in Acts 4 or rom 8 or anywhere else)?... What I said was the natural man does not have the ability to choose spiritual good. He also has no desire to please God. Pilate, Herod, the Jews and Gentiles who gathered together against Christ (acts 4) of their own free will (free in the sense that it was not forced or coerced by any power outside their own selves) murdered the Lord of Glory. And they did it because it was the strongest desire of their own wicked hearts. The idea that fallen man retains some spark of spiritual good within himself is every where contrdicted by Sripture itself! God, on the other hand, had pre-ordained each and every action that occured; right down to the minutest of details. BUT He meant it for the salvation of an innumerable multitude (i.e., His elect). Your third point, regarding God's soveiegnty and man's responsibility, is quite interesting. It seems as if the arminians have convinced themselves that they have figured it out! Congratulations! :-) You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." Your statement that Calvin denied free-will is also wrong. As calvinists, we believe that the Bible teaches that man is free to follow the desires of his heart. Of course (and as you well know) the Bible takes a dim view of the heart of unregenerate man. That is why it takes a miracle of grace before anyone has the ability to choose spiritual good (salvation). They first must recieve spiritual life (born again or born from above) "Not by the will of man but of God. John 1:13 You brought up the subject of Adam and Eve. You said: "If every act is a result of God's ordained plan, then God must be the author of sin. Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, so one cannot simply claim that they 'willing' sin in accordance with their sin nature. God must have MADE them sin"...."This is why Arminians ridicule, as Jonathan Edwards claimed, this view of God's will. One cannot believe that God 'ordains' every action and choice, and not have Him responsible for sin. He created us. He ordained our choices. But, He is not responsible for our choice?" Where you stray from biblical reality into the murky realm of human wisdom, is in your pre-supposition that God created man for some reason other than His own glory. Those whom He has passed by (the reprobate) were created to glorify God's justice and those who He chose (the elect) were created to glorify His mercy. Romans 9. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-23 God Bless, John |
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2 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88051 | ||
Greetings John! You wrote: "Where you stray from biblical reality into the murky realm of human wisdom, is in your pre-supposition that God created man for some reason other than His own glory." This is not a valid complaint. You have already established that we are allowed to use our human to determine when a verse is credible or not! ;-) But, seriously, did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned? They did not yet have a fallen nature. So, where did the 'desire' to sin come from? The arguement that someone 'willing' follows a preordained choice makes no sense at all. It is a direct contradiction. But, this argument doesn't work with Adam and Eve simply because they had not yet fallen, hence, they were not spiritually dead. So, where did their choice come from? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88125 | ||
Dear Tim "But, seriously, did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned? They did not yet have a fallen nature. So, where did the 'desire' to sin come from?" We know that the desire to sin absolutely dominates the human heart since the fall of Adam. we also know that Eve was decieved by the devil and that Adam freely participated in her sin. But I have not found in my study of the Bible where the desire to sin originated in the pre-fall hearts of Adam and Eve. We might as well ask why God made them that way (of course we know Paul's response to that question in Romans 9): "does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?". On second thought, I would say the desire came from God (the potter). I don't mean to say that they were created with a flaw, for they were perfect pots from the hand of the Perfect Potter. Rather, the Potter made them as he did for a particular use; To ultimately cause everything in Heaven and upon the Earth to freely and from pure hearts give Him all praise and glory for the things that He has done. I will leave it to other to vainly attempt to drag Him into court. Do you have an answer other than Paul's? John |
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4 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88126 | ||
Greetings John! Paul argues in Rom. 9 for the Potter's right to use the clay as He sees fit. It does not say that God has the right to sin! James 1:13 says, "When tempted, no one should say, ??God is tempting me.? For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. " So, can God God not only tempt Adam and Eve, but ordain the act of sin which they commit? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Asis | 88129 | ||
It is a fact that Adam sinned and set us all on a course of iniquity. The question I read is "Can a BELIEVER sin?" A believer as I understand the word is on who is a follower and disciple of the Lord Jesus. The answer to the question about a believer is They only sin because they want to. We are dead to sin. No temptation copme upon us that is beyond that which we can handle. We sin because we choose to | ||||||