Results 1 - 20 of 22
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87935 | ||
Greetings John! So, now your saying that the historical narrative of the two verses you cited before are simply poetic expressions? Literalism simply means to take Scripture in the way in which it was intended. So, I read narrative as narrative, poetry as poetry. Concerning the single verse, it shouldn't be so hard to find such a crucial doctrine supported by Scripture! ;-) Concerning your request for a single verse, I have never made the claim that mainkind is in control of it's own eternal destiny. I have only said that Christ died for all, which I have offered many verses to support. I have claimed that salvation is a gift which must be received, which I have offered many verses to support. So, what is the problem? Salvation is totally of God. He draws us. He died for us. He saves us. We agree on these points my friend. We simply disagree on the extent of His love. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87968 | ||
Dear Tim, You are in "denial", when you say " I have never made the claim that mainkind is in control of it's own eternal destiny. I have only said that Christ died for all, which I have offered many verses to support. "I have claimed that salvation is a gift which must be received, which I have offered many verses to support." You also stated "Salvation is totally of God. He draws us. He died for us. He saves us. We agree on these points my friend. We simply disagree on the extent of His love." How does your statement "Salvation is totally of God." square with your espousal of free-willism? Again, arminianism teaches that God draws man and presents the offer of salvation. BUT, BUT, BUT....the final decision is up to the WILL OF MAN! God may move heaven and earth to persuade the lost to accept the gospel offer, but is powerless in face of man's rejection of that offer. Getting back to "all", as always being used in the absolute sense of the word, I have submitted a few verses which may persuade you, God willing, to modify your extreme position on this word. Matt 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee,... Matt 4:24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them. Mark 9:23 And Jesus said to him, "'If You can?' All things are possible to him who believes." Your Brother, John |
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3 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87970 | ||
Greetings John! Good morning my friend! Allow me to touch upon your points very quickly. I do want to bring the 'all' part to a close because we are going in circles, but you do raise a different issue with your other point. 1) All: The three examples you cite, to me, still do not proof your point. If Scripture says that Jesus went through all of Galilee, I believe He did. If Scripture says that the news spread through all Syria and that they brought all of those who were ill, then I believe it. If Scripture says that all things are possible to him who belives, then I believe it. I don't take the approach that I must first find a statement in Scripture reasonable before I will believe it! Now, I do believe that 'all' can be modified or limited by other words. For example: Acts 5:16 - "Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed." Here, 'all' only includes those sick and possessed who were actually brought to Jesus. Rom. 6:3 - "Or don?t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Here, 'all', includes only those who were baptized in Christ Jesus. But, if 'all' is not modified, then it means 'all'. If you look 'pas' up in a Greek dictionary, you will not find a single listing for the meaning 'some'! ;-) Aside from the atonement verses, I am actually quite shocked that you advocate changing the meaning of 'all' if one finds it uncrediable. What is someone objects that they do not find it credible that 'all' have actually sinned (Rom. 3:23 and 5:12)? Or, what if someone doesn't find it credible that God really works in all things (Rom. 8:28)? Or, what if someone doesn't believe that 'all' things actually come from God (1 Cor. 8:6)? Arguing that 'all' is modified by the text is one thing, but rejecting 'all' because one does not find it credible is another! 2) Freewillism: Allow me to ask you a question. I know from previous posts that you believe that Christians can still commit acts of sin (as do I). When you sin, do you sin because you willed to or because God willed you to sin? Now, surely, you will not argue that God willed you to sin. If you do, then you make God the direct cause of a violation of His commands. Therefore, you did something that was against God's will for you when you committed an act of sin. Does that mean that God is powerless? Does that mean that you are in control of your eternal destiny? Have you wrested the right of God to judge out of His impotent hands? The answer is of course, no! The belief in the ability of man to choose certain things does not mean that God is impotent. It simply means that God has given us the ability to choose certain things. There are somethings that I can't choose. I can't choose where I am to be born! ;-) I can't choose to have the talent of Michael Jordan! But, I can choose what job I will work. I can choose where I will live. I can choose which congregation I will attend. I can choose to obey or disobey God. Now, what does Scripture say about this radical concept that man can accept or receive the gift of salvation? Rom. 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God?s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." Receive - Present, Active, Participle. The active voice means that the subject is doing the action. I know I have posted other verses on this issue before. Well, this is getting long, so I'll cease and desist now! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87974 | ||
Dear Tim, You stated; "But, if 'all' is not modified, then it means 'all'. If you look 'pas' up in a Greek dictionary, you will not find a single listing for the meaning 'some'!" I never said all may mean some, Tim. However, I do believe it can mean virtually all, most, or many depending on context. As a child of God, we are privledged to be in the possession of "inside information". Christians are the only people who can understand the Bible. Now...Don't get me wrong...I am not saying that I myself or any other christian have perfect knowledge or understanding. The fact that you and I differ at all proves that! Nevertheless, our familial relationship with our Father puts us in a special category when it comes to discernment. We are vessels of the Holy Spirit whose will it is to enlighten us and cause us to grow in the knowledge of God. To this end God has also provided for us pastors and teachers, who are specially gifted, to assist us in our discovery of the will of God for our lives. One of the things that I have learned from my teachers is the importance of context. I have been warned against coming to any conclusion based upon a single verse. Rather, the prudent reader will examine the surrounding verses, the chapter, the book and the entirity of Scripture as well if needs be. Therefore, if a particular word in a particlar verse seems problematical, additional light from another verse may be brought in to solve the difficulty. Please allow me to show the method I have used to solve the proplem of the use of the word "all" in Matt 3:5 and why I think it is an innocent use of hyperbole. Firstly I checked the meaning of "all" in the concordance. I then looked for other verses from Matthew to get the sense of how the writer understands the word. I agree that to Matthew "all" meant "all" most of the time, but in some cases it was not used in the precise definition of the term. For instance: Matt 21:10 When He had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, "Who is this?" Now, If we are to believe that ALL the city (every living soul within the city limits) said "Who is this?", it leads to an absurdity. In order to be considered "Bible believing christians", must we believe that the dumb and newborn infants as well spoke these words. Common sense alone is sufficent to tell us that "all" in this case does not mean absolutely everyone! I rest my case. Moving on...You said "Allow me to ask you a question. I know from previous posts that you believe that Christians can still commit acts of sin (as do I). When you sin, do you sin because you willed to or because God willed you to sin?" When Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel who gathered together to perform the most grievous sin of all, was it because they willed it or because God willed it? Acts 4:26-28 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. Now, what does Scripture say about this radical concept that man can accept or receive the gift of salvation?... Rom. 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God?s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."...Receive - Present, Active, Participle. The active voice means that the subject is doing the action. Your pre-supposition that man has an inate ability to choose spiritual good, despite being "dead in sin", compels your interpretation of Rom 5:17 as supporting free-willism. The way I interpret 5:17 is that those who recieve, do so because God had drawn them, had taught them (through the power of the Holy Spirit using the means of the gospel) and raised them from spiritual life by giving them a believing heart of flesh. God has not failed in anything He has puposed to do! Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Is 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Yes I am a sinner. And yes I believe that God has pre-ordained all things. I also believe that He is not the author of sin, neither does He tempt sinners to sin. The soverignty of God and the responsiblity of man is one of those questions that must wait til we are perfected. In the meantime I trust the Lord to keep me and try to avoid leaning on my own understanding. Your Brother, John Reformed |
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5 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87979 | ||
Greetings John! Concerning 'all' my friend, see my new post entitled 'My Final Answer'. Concerning sin, I actually did ask you about Herod's sin. I knew that for non-Christians you would simply respond that they had no choice but to will to sin. So, I asked you if, when you as a Christian sin, you do so because of an act of your will or because of an act of God's will? Christians are specifically commanded not to sin! Christians have a new nature. So, when you as a Christian sin, is it because you willed it or because God willed it? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87983 | ||
Dear Tim, In a certain sense, I see no diffence between Herod sinning and my sinning. We both followed our wicked desire. We both sinned for our own evil reason but in my case: Rom 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Rom 7:20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Friend Tim... I know that you must agree with me when I say that in the lives of those who love Him and have been called according to His purpose, That God causes all things to work together for good. All means all, does it not? Sin is a thing that occurs in our lives, does it not? Then God has predestined that sin...not for evil...but for good. What does make the diffence between the unregenerate and the saint is our response to sin. We hate it after we do it! We feel as if we had betrayed our Lord and made a mockery of our profession. We fear our Father's discipline and are ashamed of ourselves. We are granted repentance and forgiveness and pray for the grace to grow in holiness. God used sin as the means of providing salvation for His people. He also may use it to work humility and gratitude in these same people. So the answer to both questions is Yes. John |
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7 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87993 | ||
Greetings John! I am at a loss my friend. If I understand your response correctly, then the commands of Scripture have no meaning whatsoever. Paul commands us in Rom. 6:12 - "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." But, you are saying that when a believers sins, he is only doing what God ordained. So, God commands us not to sin, but then MAKES us sin? Yet, Rom. 8:9 says, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." We clearly do not read Scripture in the same way my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87998 | ||
Relax Tim, Take a deep breath and read again what I said. I am not denying the duty of every christian to obey the commandments of Christ! But I think I am in good company when I pray "grant what thou command and command what thou wilt". (Augustine) What I attempted to show was our absolute dependence on the grace of God to do any good whatsoever. Jesus said "without me you can do nothing". You pointed to Paul commands us in Rom. 6:12 - "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." I agree we are not to surrender and serve sin rather than obey God. But if I am to conquer it will be "through Christ" and not my flesh. Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. This passage is not a narrative it is didactic. Why won't you allow "all" to mean "all" here? is it because it does not fit your pre-suppositions? You are als ignoring acts 4 26-28...Why? Your Brother John |
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9 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88014 | ||
Greetings John! Okay, final post on my end for two reasons. One, I have to start moving! :-) Two, we are spinning our wheels here! :-) First of all, I never once denied that 'all' in Rom. 8:28 means 'all'. But, neither does Rom. 8:28 that God ordains all things. It says, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,....". There is a big difference in saying that God can take even my sin and work some good out of it and saying that God ordained my sin. Secondly, I wasn't ignoring Acts 4:26-28. It simply wasn't relevant to the question I had asked you my friend. We both agree that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. We both agree that God can do whatever He wants! What we disagree on is whether man has any ability to choose to obey or disobey. I asked you about Christians who sin. Do they sin because God willed it or because they willed it? My understanding is that when I commit an act of sin I am disobeying God's will, not acting upon it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88024 | ||
Greetings Tim, "Okay, final post on my end for two reasons. One, I have to start moving! :-) Two, we are spinning our wheels here! :-)" ------------------------------------------------ Actually, I think my wheels are gaining traction! ------------------------------------------------- "First of all, I never once denied that 'all' in Rom. 8:28 means 'all'. But, neither does Rom. 8:28 that God ordains all things. It says, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,....". There is a big difference in saying that God can take even my sin and work some good out of it and saying that God ordained my sin." ------------------------------------------------- I did not mean, by citing Romans 8:28, to imply that it proved pre-destination. What I had attepted to show that "all things", including our sins, "God works together for good". This verse also serves as an arguement against the possibility of losing our salvation. ------------------------------------------------- "Secondly, I wasn't ignoring Acts 4:26-28. It simply wasn't relevant to the question I had asked you my friend. We both agree that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. We both agree that God can do whatever He wants!" ------------------------------------------------- The difference we have is that you say, "God CAN do whatever He wants", but, I say "God HAS done what He wanted to do." Acts 4:26-28 is one of the strongest and clearest proofs of God's soveriegn pre-ordination of eveything that has and will occur. At the same time it preserves man's freedom (those who crucified Christ meant it for evil but God meant it for good). ------------------------------------------------- "What we disagree on is whether man has any ability to choose to obey or disobey. I asked you about Christians who sin. Do they sin because God willed it or because they willed it? My understanding is that when I commit an act of sin I am disobeying God's will, not acting upon it." ------------------------------------------------- This would lead us into another area of theology. Jonathan Edwards wrote 250 years ago, "The Arminians ridicule the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God, or, more properly expressed, the distinction between the decree and the law of God; because we say he may decree one thing, and command another. And so, they argue, we hold a contrariety in God, as if one will of his contradicted another." Perhaps, after you have settled in, we might re-visit this fascinating and impotant topic. Your Brother in Christ, John Reformed |
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11 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88036 | ||
Greetings John! You just keep putting statements out there that I can't resist! :-) It must be preordained! ;-) Let me keep it brief though. 1) Romans 8:28: In your last post you wrote: "I did not mean, by citing Romans 8:28, to imply that it proved pre-destination." But, in a previous post (87983), you wrote: "That God causes all things to work together for good. All means all, does it not? Sin is a thing that occurs in our lives, does it not? Then God has predestined that sin...not for evil...but for good." This is the statement I was reacting to my friend. Rom. 8:28 does not say that God predestined sin. It says that God all things for good to those who love Him. There is a world of difference between taking something evil and using it for good and preordaining something evil would happen. 2) Acts 4:26-28: Allow me to clarify my friend. I believe that God has done what He wants, not just that He can. Where we differ is on what Scripture actually says He has done. Based on the Scripture verses we have been discussing I say that He HAS died for all and HAS shown mercy to all. :-) Secondly, even if your understanding of this verse is correct (in the sense that man's will played no part whatsoever), it still doesn't prove (as you state in your last post) that "EVERYTHING that has or will occur" has preordained. It would only proof the the murder of Christ was preordained, since that is the only act specifically mentioned in this verse. The word 'all' isn't used here! ;-) 3) Finally, concerning the two wills of God. Arminians also believe in two wills of God. We believe there are those things which God has decreed WILL occur and that there are things which God wants to occur but may not because of the freedom He has given us to obey or disobey Him. So, God wants all men to repent, but He has not determined that all men will in fact repent. I have no problem with that view of two wills. However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin. If every act is a result of God's ordained plan, then God must be the author of sin. Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, so one cannot simply claim that they 'willing' sin in accordance with their sin nature. God must have MADE them sin. This is why Arminians ridicule, as Jonathan Edwards claimed, this view of God's will. One cannot believe that God 'ordains' every action and choice, and not have Him responsible for sin. He created us. He ordained our choices. But, He is not responsible for our choice? I used to write computer programs. This analogy would be like me writing a program which has encoded within it the formula (2 plus 2 equals 3), and then claiming that it is not my fault that the program can't add 2 plus 2! ;-) That horrible free will that you reject solves the problem quite nicely though. He creates us with the ability to choose. We disobey Him and choose wrongly. Thus, we are responsible for our choice. To illustrate this with the computer analogy, many people are working of AI in computers. Suppose that I wrote a program which could actually learn on it's own. Over the course of time, the program incorrectly learned that 2 plus 2 equals 3. Now, I can blame the program and not the programmer. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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12 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88049 | ||
Hi Tim, Concerning your first point: I may have confused you a bit by, seemingly, contradicting myself. But it was not deliberate or even an actual contradiction; it was a failure on my part to fully explain myself in the previous post. For that, I apologize. I had said "That God causes all things to work together for good. All means all, does it not? Sin is a thing that occurs in our lives, does it not? Then God has predestined that sin...not for evil...but for good." This is what I was attemting to show. I had used Acts 4 to make my case for God's pre-ordination of "all things". I used Romans 8:28 to make the case that "all things" must include the sins of the saints. As to your following comment, "I say that He HAS died for all and HAS shown mercy to all". John 6 and Romans 9 do not support universal atonement. Furthermore, the scriptures we have been discussing make a strong case for God's absolute soverignty in in all things, including keeping His elect from failling to perservere til the end. Moving on...you said "Secondly, even if your understanding of this verse is correct (in the sense that man's will played no part whatsoever), it still doesn't prove (as you state in your last post) that "EVERYTHING that has or will occur" has preordained. It would only proof the the murder of Christ was preordained, since that is the only act specifically mentioned in this verse. The word 'all' isn't used here! ;-) and "You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." But when have I ever said that man's will played no part whatsoever (in Acts 4 or rom 8 or anywhere else)?... What I said was the natural man does not have the ability to choose spiritual good. He also has no desire to please God. Pilate, Herod, the Jews and Gentiles who gathered together against Christ (acts 4) of their own free will (free in the sense that it was not forced or coerced by any power outside their own selves) murdered the Lord of Glory. And they did it because it was the strongest desire of their own wicked hearts. The idea that fallen man retains some spark of spiritual good within himself is every where contrdicted by Sripture itself! God, on the other hand, had pre-ordained each and every action that occured; right down to the minutest of details. BUT He meant it for the salvation of an innumerable multitude (i.e., His elect). Your third point, regarding God's soveiegnty and man's responsibility, is quite interesting. It seems as if the arminians have convinced themselves that they have figured it out! Congratulations! :-) You said "However, if like Calvin, one denies that man has any free will, then one is forced to believe contradictory statements. A) God does not will man to sin. B) God wills man to sin." Your statement that Calvin denied free-will is also wrong. As calvinists, we believe that the Bible teaches that man is free to follow the desires of his heart. Of course (and as you well know) the Bible takes a dim view of the heart of unregenerate man. That is why it takes a miracle of grace before anyone has the ability to choose spiritual good (salvation). They first must recieve spiritual life (born again or born from above) "Not by the will of man but of God. John 1:13 You brought up the subject of Adam and Eve. You said: "If every act is a result of God's ordained plan, then God must be the author of sin. Adam and Eve did not have a fallen nature, so one cannot simply claim that they 'willing' sin in accordance with their sin nature. God must have MADE them sin"...."This is why Arminians ridicule, as Jonathan Edwards claimed, this view of God's will. One cannot believe that God 'ordains' every action and choice, and not have Him responsible for sin. He created us. He ordained our choices. But, He is not responsible for our choice?" Where you stray from biblical reality into the murky realm of human wisdom, is in your pre-supposition that God created man for some reason other than His own glory. Those whom He has passed by (the reprobate) were created to glorify God's justice and those who He chose (the elect) were created to glorify His mercy. Romans 9. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-23 God Bless, John |
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13 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88050 | ||
Greetings John! You wrote: "Where you stray from biblical reality into the murky realm of human wisdom, is in your pre-supposition that God created man for some reason other than His own glory." This is not a valid complaint. You have already established that we are allowed to use our human to determine when a verse is credible or not! ;-) But, seriously, did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned? They did not yet have a fallen nature. So, where did the 'desire' to sin come from? The arguement that someone 'willing' follows a preordained choice makes no sense at all. It is a direct contradiction. But, this argument doesn't work with Adam and Eve simply because they had not yet fallen, hence, they were not spiritually dead. So, where did their choice come from? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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14 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88070 | ||
Hi Tim, "This is not a valid complaint. You have already established that we are allowed to use our human to determine when a verse is credible or not! ;-)" I assume the missing word in your Q. is human "reason". I do believe that "reason" was given to us for the express purpose of understanding God's Word. What I meant by "human wisdom" (a poor choice of terms on my part) is the "wisdom of this world". I define it as a false reasoning which attempts to undermine the clear teaching of Scripture by forcing it to agree with the mores of the contemporary culture. "did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned?" The WCF claims "Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory You know my position is that Adam and Eve were not cursed until after they sinned. They were not created with fallen natures. Their wills were absolutely free to choose either good or evil. They were free to choose spirtual good or ill, they chose ill. At the same time, God had known from all eternity that that would be their choice. He created them knowing what would occur. Now, I do not believe that God merely looks down the corridors of time to see what will occur in the future. This is a low view of God's omniscience and is more suitable to deism than christianity. I do believe that God is the creator in the highest sense of the word and that would mean that everything that occurs could not have occured apart from His work and purpose in creating the world. "The arguement that someone 'willing' follows a preordained choice makes no sense at all. It is a direct contradiction." Is 46:10,11 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Just because our litle peanut brains can't comprehend the mind of God does not justify our bringing "what is written" down to a level that agrees with our own man-glorifying notions of right and wrong. God Bless, John |
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15 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88074 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the response my friend! Thanks for catching the type as well! ;-) You wrote: "They were free to choose spirtual good or ill, they chose ill. At the same time, God had known from all eternity that that would be their choice. He created them knowing what would occur." Finally, we do agree on one point! :-) But, you have previously said that God ordained every choice and action. So, we are back to the same question. Did Adam and Eve sin because they willed it or because God willed it? If the original sin of Adam and Eve was a direct result of God's ordained plan, then God is the author of sin. There is no way around this conclusion. If God is the author of Adam and Eve's sin, then He is also the direct cause of all the sins of those who followed Adam and Eve, who (according to your definition of freedom) followed the dictates of their fallen nature and sinned as well. This is where we part company. I do not believe that they Bible teaches that every single choice and action is ordained by God. There are some things which clearly are ordained - i.e. the death of Jesus. But, I believe that God sovereignly allowed man the freedom to choose to obey or disobey Him. This point has far reaching implications for the topic we have been discussing. I may not be able to respond to any comments for a day or two my friend. Today is the day I actually start moving. So, I will probably be offline until at least Wednesday. But, when I get back on, I will be operating at broadband speeds! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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16 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88084 | ||
"But, you have previously said that God ordained every choice and action. So, we are back to the same question. Did Adam and Eve sin because they willed it or because God willed it?" -------------------------------------- Yes. In the sense that God, had He willed to do so, could have foregone their creation in the first place. Being that He did create them with the capacity to sin, is it not obvious that it also suited His eternal purpose. ------------------------------------------------- "If the original sin of Adam and Eve was a direct result of God's ordained plan, then God is the author of sin. There is no way around this conclusion."...."If God is the author of Adam and Eve's sin, then He is also the direct cause of all the sins of those who followed Adam and Eve, who (according to your definition of freedom) followed the dictates of their fallen nature and sinned as well." ----------------------------------------------- OOPS! Carefull here Tim. Pride goeth before a fall! :-) Is sin a created thing? I don't think that it is. Sin is "missing the mark". Man's failure to live up to God's command "to be perfect, even as He is perfect". Adam and Eve missed the mark when they disobeyed God's command. God uses sin in the lives of His creatures, both the just and the unjust, for His own Holy purpose. This neither excuses the sinner nor makes God the Author of sin. (see Acts 4: 26-28) Of course God could have eliminated the possibility of any of His creatures sinning by simply not issuing any commands whatsoever. But the fact is that He did introduce the law (no law, no sin) knowing that they would fall. Why He acted as He has is beyond our ken. And it has pleased Him to not reveal the answer to us. We probably could'nt understand it anyway! :-) The deeper we dig into the truths of God the deeper they go. Is 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. John |
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17 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88086 | ||
Greetings John! Aw! The famous 'it is a mystery' argument! :-) So, did God create Adam and Eve with the capacity to sin or did He ordain their very choice? If the former, then we agree. I believe that God created man with a will and the ability to choose to do right or wrong. If the later, then we disagree for God would be the 'direct' cause of Adam and Eve's sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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18 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88091 | ||
Dear Tim, "Aw! The famous 'it is a mystery' argument! :-)" I have no intention of copping out on what I have stated! I only meant to show, beyond that which the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us in His Word, it is unknowable. Don't you agree? "So, did God create Adam and Eve with the capacity to sin or did He ordain their very choice?" God created Adam and eve with the freedom to choose between obediance to His command or to disobey His command. He knew they would disobey and He created them in spite of His knowing. Therefore, His will was that their fall would occur. There is no way, that I know of, that God can fail to accomplish anything which He has decided to do. I have already demonstrated (sin is not a created "thing")that the fact that they sinned was ordained by God (Is 46:10) but God cannot be held as it's author. Jer 18:6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. It seems to me, given the brevity of your response, that the pressures of moving have prevented you from giving serious consideration to my post. Pehaps it would be best to wait until you are settled before we resume our conversation on this "thorny" and difficlt topic. I would appreciate a little time myself to study and meditate on the topic. May God Bless your new move. John |
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19 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 88095 | ||
John Reformed: So your argument is that it was God's will that the fall of Adam and Eve would occur? Was sin involved in the fall? Was it God's will that they should sin? How does this line of reasoning prevent God from being, in fact, the author of sin? And how is it that Scripture says that God is not willing than any should perish? (see 2 Peter 3:9). How do you fit that in with your assertion that God willed the fall of Adam and Eve? You do say in your post that God created Adam and Eve with the freedom to choose to obey or disobey His commands. Yet you say in the very same paragraph that it was GOD'S WILL that they should fall. How can you possibly unify this glaring dichotomy without dancing around with some fancy semantic footwork? --Hank | ||||||
20 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88114 | ||
Dear Hank, " So your argument is that it was God's will that the fall of Adam and Eve would occur?" How else then could it have occured if God had not permitted it to occur. He is Lord over all creation. Nothing can take place that is not in accord with God's eternal purpose. Our problem is that we don't see the "Big Picture". We don't understand the glory of God's eternal plan. We look at tiny slices of life and think we know it all. Take the case of Joseph and his brothers for instance. Had we been there we would have questioned why God would allow the brothers to be so sinful as to plot the death of young Joseph. But all along God had planned tremendous good to come out of evil. Here comes the tricky part...Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. "but God meant it.." Acts 4 basically teaches this same principle. God had ordained the actions that surrounded the murder of Christ. Does that make God the author of sin. Of course not. Just as Joseph's brothers meant evil, Pilate, Herod and the rest meant evil as well. BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD! The same is true going all the way back to Adam and Eve. "God often brings good out of evil, and promotes the designs of his providence even by the sins of men; not that he is the author of sin, far be it from us to think so; but his infinite wisdom so overrules events, and directs the chain of them, that, in the issue, that ends in his praise which in its own nature had a direct tendency to his dishonour; as the putting of Christ to death, Acts 2:23." (Matthew Henry Commentary) I guess that it boils down to the question: Does God know the future because He knows how everything will turn out (which means He is passive in His rule) or Does He know the end from the begining because He ordained all things that occur (which means He is active in His rule.) I see everything that happens as being part of God's eternal plan. The cross was planned along with everythingelse before the foundation of the world. Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, John |
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