Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88070 | ||
Hi Tim, "This is not a valid complaint. You have already established that we are allowed to use our human to determine when a verse is credible or not! ;-)" I assume the missing word in your Q. is human "reason". I do believe that "reason" was given to us for the express purpose of understanding God's Word. What I meant by "human wisdom" (a poor choice of terms on my part) is the "wisdom of this world". I define it as a false reasoning which attempts to undermine the clear teaching of Scripture by forcing it to agree with the mores of the contemporary culture. "did Adam and Eve simply follow their fallen nature when they sinned?" The WCF claims "Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory You know my position is that Adam and Eve were not cursed until after they sinned. They were not created with fallen natures. Their wills were absolutely free to choose either good or evil. They were free to choose spirtual good or ill, they chose ill. At the same time, God had known from all eternity that that would be their choice. He created them knowing what would occur. Now, I do not believe that God merely looks down the corridors of time to see what will occur in the future. This is a low view of God's omniscience and is more suitable to deism than christianity. I do believe that God is the creator in the highest sense of the word and that would mean that everything that occurs could not have occured apart from His work and purpose in creating the world. "The arguement that someone 'willing' follows a preordained choice makes no sense at all. It is a direct contradiction." Is 46:10,11 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Just because our litle peanut brains can't comprehend the mind of God does not justify our bringing "what is written" down to a level that agrees with our own man-glorifying notions of right and wrong. God Bless, John |
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2 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88074 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the response my friend! Thanks for catching the type as well! ;-) You wrote: "They were free to choose spirtual good or ill, they chose ill. At the same time, God had known from all eternity that that would be their choice. He created them knowing what would occur." Finally, we do agree on one point! :-) But, you have previously said that God ordained every choice and action. So, we are back to the same question. Did Adam and Eve sin because they willed it or because God willed it? If the original sin of Adam and Eve was a direct result of God's ordained plan, then God is the author of sin. There is no way around this conclusion. If God is the author of Adam and Eve's sin, then He is also the direct cause of all the sins of those who followed Adam and Eve, who (according to your definition of freedom) followed the dictates of their fallen nature and sinned as well. This is where we part company. I do not believe that they Bible teaches that every single choice and action is ordained by God. There are some things which clearly are ordained - i.e. the death of Jesus. But, I believe that God sovereignly allowed man the freedom to choose to obey or disobey Him. This point has far reaching implications for the topic we have been discussing. I may not be able to respond to any comments for a day or two my friend. Today is the day I actually start moving. So, I will probably be offline until at least Wednesday. But, when I get back on, I will be operating at broadband speeds! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88084 | ||
"But, you have previously said that God ordained every choice and action. So, we are back to the same question. Did Adam and Eve sin because they willed it or because God willed it?" -------------------------------------- Yes. In the sense that God, had He willed to do so, could have foregone their creation in the first place. Being that He did create them with the capacity to sin, is it not obvious that it also suited His eternal purpose. ------------------------------------------------- "If the original sin of Adam and Eve was a direct result of God's ordained plan, then God is the author of sin. There is no way around this conclusion."...."If God is the author of Adam and Eve's sin, then He is also the direct cause of all the sins of those who followed Adam and Eve, who (according to your definition of freedom) followed the dictates of their fallen nature and sinned as well." ----------------------------------------------- OOPS! Carefull here Tim. Pride goeth before a fall! :-) Is sin a created thing? I don't think that it is. Sin is "missing the mark". Man's failure to live up to God's command "to be perfect, even as He is perfect". Adam and Eve missed the mark when they disobeyed God's command. God uses sin in the lives of His creatures, both the just and the unjust, for His own Holy purpose. This neither excuses the sinner nor makes God the Author of sin. (see Acts 4: 26-28) Of course God could have eliminated the possibility of any of His creatures sinning by simply not issuing any commands whatsoever. But the fact is that He did introduce the law (no law, no sin) knowing that they would fall. Why He acted as He has is beyond our ken. And it has pleased Him to not reveal the answer to us. We probably could'nt understand it anyway! :-) The deeper we dig into the truths of God the deeper they go. Is 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. John |
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4 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 88086 | ||
Greetings John! Aw! The famous 'it is a mystery' argument! :-) So, did God create Adam and Eve with the capacity to sin or did He ordain their very choice? If the former, then we agree. I believe that God created man with a will and the ability to choose to do right or wrong. If the later, then we disagree for God would be the 'direct' cause of Adam and Eve's sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88091 | ||
Dear Tim, "Aw! The famous 'it is a mystery' argument! :-)" I have no intention of copping out on what I have stated! I only meant to show, beyond that which the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us in His Word, it is unknowable. Don't you agree? "So, did God create Adam and Eve with the capacity to sin or did He ordain their very choice?" God created Adam and eve with the freedom to choose between obediance to His command or to disobey His command. He knew they would disobey and He created them in spite of His knowing. Therefore, His will was that their fall would occur. There is no way, that I know of, that God can fail to accomplish anything which He has decided to do. I have already demonstrated (sin is not a created "thing")that the fact that they sinned was ordained by God (Is 46:10) but God cannot be held as it's author. Jer 18:6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. It seems to me, given the brevity of your response, that the pressures of moving have prevented you from giving serious consideration to my post. Pehaps it would be best to wait until you are settled before we resume our conversation on this "thorny" and difficlt topic. I would appreciate a little time myself to study and meditate on the topic. May God Bless your new move. John |
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6 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 88095 | ||
John Reformed: So your argument is that it was God's will that the fall of Adam and Eve would occur? Was sin involved in the fall? Was it God's will that they should sin? How does this line of reasoning prevent God from being, in fact, the author of sin? And how is it that Scripture says that God is not willing than any should perish? (see 2 Peter 3:9). How do you fit that in with your assertion that God willed the fall of Adam and Eve? You do say in your post that God created Adam and Eve with the freedom to choose to obey or disobey His commands. Yet you say in the very same paragraph that it was GOD'S WILL that they should fall. How can you possibly unify this glaring dichotomy without dancing around with some fancy semantic footwork? --Hank | ||||||
7 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88114 | ||
Dear Hank, " So your argument is that it was God's will that the fall of Adam and Eve would occur?" How else then could it have occured if God had not permitted it to occur. He is Lord over all creation. Nothing can take place that is not in accord with God's eternal purpose. Our problem is that we don't see the "Big Picture". We don't understand the glory of God's eternal plan. We look at tiny slices of life and think we know it all. Take the case of Joseph and his brothers for instance. Had we been there we would have questioned why God would allow the brothers to be so sinful as to plot the death of young Joseph. But all along God had planned tremendous good to come out of evil. Here comes the tricky part...Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. "but God meant it.." Acts 4 basically teaches this same principle. God had ordained the actions that surrounded the murder of Christ. Does that make God the author of sin. Of course not. Just as Joseph's brothers meant evil, Pilate, Herod and the rest meant evil as well. BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD! The same is true going all the way back to Adam and Eve. "God often brings good out of evil, and promotes the designs of his providence even by the sins of men; not that he is the author of sin, far be it from us to think so; but his infinite wisdom so overrules events, and directs the chain of them, that, in the issue, that ends in his praise which in its own nature had a direct tendency to his dishonour; as the putting of Christ to death, Acts 2:23." (Matthew Henry Commentary) I guess that it boils down to the question: Does God know the future because He knows how everything will turn out (which means He is passive in His rule) or Does He know the end from the begining because He ordained all things that occur (which means He is active in His rule.) I see everything that happens as being part of God's eternal plan. The cross was planned along with everythingelse before the foundation of the world. Eph 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, John |
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8 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 88118 | ||
John Reformed: You still have not answered the question that I asked you in Post 88095 which was prompted by two of your statements in Post 88091. So let's go back and review your statements: "God created Adam and Eve with the freedom to choose between obedience to His command or to disobey His command." You follow with this statement, "His will was that their fall should occur." The Question: If Adam and Eve had the freedom to choose (as you have stated), was it Adam and Eve's will, or God's will, that resulted in their decision (choice) to disobey God's command? Please provide a biblical answer. --Hank | ||||||
9 | Whose will causes a believer to sin? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88124 | ||
Hank If Adam and Eve had the freedom to choose (as you have stated), was it Adam and Eve's will, or God's will, that resulted in their decision (choice) to disobey God's command? My Final Answer is..........(dramatic pause)Both! They meant it for evil but God meant it for good. As I understand the Bible, God had an eternal purpose in creating the world and all things in it. Now, I am confident that a sound SB like yourself would never buy into the diest view that sees God as a watchmaker who created the world, wound it up and just let it keep on ticking. The Bible refutes such nonsense. Is 46:1 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; "all My good pleasure". That means to me that God does not merely know the beginning from the end, but has "declared" them, so as to inform us all that He rules over everthing and everybody. "My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; That sounds as definite as it gets. Everything that He has planned will happen. Do any of us think that we will live a nanosecond longer than God has planned for our lives? Or that a drop of rain will fall in any other place than where God planned for it to fall? Of course not! We serve a Mighty God. There is no end to the depth of His greatness. Re-read Acts 4 and tell me what it means. Just don't tell me it relates to the crucifixtion but not to the rest of God's works. Eph 1:11,12 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory." God Bless, John |
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