Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 87720 | ||
Now really, John Reformed, what's new in your post that you haven't posted umpteen times already? EdB was right after all: "We have both heard it all." (What WOULD you Calvinists have to talk about if it weren't for Romans 9 ?? !! :-) ..... Note to new users: If you really want to read several hundred posts on the Forum's Famous Calvinism Debates, hit Search and type in Calvinism. --Hank | ||||||
2 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87763 | ||
Dear Hank, I felt it nesessary to address Ed's errant conception that God would be cruel and unjust if He chose for himself a people to have mercy on (the elect) and passed by the rest. Ed claimed that there is no evidence from Scripture of God having chosen in this way. I believe that Romans 9 is an indisputable evidence that even the most stubborn arminian cannot ignore. God Bless Hank, John |
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3 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87774 | ||
Greetings John! Hey! I'm a stubborn arminian! ;-) Not to redebate the issue, but there is another way of understanding Romans 9! You view it as an expression that God has limited His grace to certain people. I view it as an expression of God's opening His grace up to all people. In my reading of Rom. 9-11, the complaint against God is not that He doesn't show mercy, but that He does! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87782 | ||
Hi Tim, I guess a lot depends on our pre-suppositions. Calvinists pre-suppose the Potter's freedom to do with the clay as He see's fit. We also believe that the Judge of the universe always judges righteously. And where God has closed His mouth...we cease from inquiring. Brother John |
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5 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87784 | ||
Greetings John! We both agree that the Potter has the right to do what He wants. However, the question we differ on is what does Scripture say He wants to do with the clay? ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 87787 | ||
Tim, At least we are on the same track for a change! God is in control of what happens. Not man. Keeping with the context of Rom 9: Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Whatever the Lord does is for His Glory. I dont't see where losing glorifys God. Amazing grace you tried your best to save a wretch like me I once was lost and then was found and lost again.. dear me! John John |
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7 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87791 | ||
Greetings John! You wrote: "I dont't see where losing glorifys God." But, Is. 55:9 says, "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." ;-) Rom. 9 explains God's right to work out His purpose of election, but 10-11 defines His purpose of election. In particular, Rom. 11:25-32 shows that the Potter has been sovereignly working so that He might show mercy to all men, not just some. That is the point at which we differ my friend. I asked someone earlier, where is the verse which says that Christ died only for some? I can show you plenty that say He died for all, or the world. I know that you will then say that 'all' only means' some, and 'world' only means certain kinds of people. But, where is the verse which specifically states that Christ died only for some? Just curious! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Reformer Joe | 87816 | ||
Hey, Tim. "Rom. 9 explains God's right to work out His purpose of election, but 10-11 defines His purpose of election. In particular, Rom. 11:25-32 shows that the Potter has been sovereignly working so that He might show mercy to all men, not just some." In order to conclude that regarding Romans 11, you have to do injustice to Romans 9:19-24 and essentially makes it meaningless. If he doesn't will to harden some, but chooses to show salvific mercy (Paul's polar opposite to hardening) to each and every individual on the planet, then the introduction to the discourse which begins in Romans 9 and concludes in Romans 11 is negated completely. "That is the point at which we differ my friend. I asked someone earlier, where is the verse which says that Christ died only for some? I can show you plenty that say He died for all, or the world. I know that you will then say that 'all' only means' some, and 'world' only means certain kinds of people. But, where is the verse which specifically states that Christ died only for some?" Where is the verse which specifically states that the Holy Spirit is God? We both know that theological truths are often derived from a number of passages taken together synthetically. There are a number of passages that speak of Christ dying for the elect and the church that have little impact on the discussion if what is really meant is that "Christ died for the elect and the church (and everyone else). Examples include Romans 14:15, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, and Ephesians 5:25-30. And then of course, we have John 6, which is being debated (again!) in another thread. --Joe! |
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9 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87822 | ||
Greetings Joe! 1) How would my understanding of Rom. 11 negate Rom. 9, when Romans 11 specifically states that those who were hardened can be grafted in again? 2) None of the verses you cite even use the word 'elect'! In fact, 2 Cor. 5:14-15 says that opposite, it says that He died for all! :-) This has been my point my friend. A theological construction forces us to change the meaning of words so that simple declarative statements become complex theological constructs which must be interpreted differently than the normal language of the text would normally be read. Your a Spanish teacher Joe, if you read a sentence which translated as "Love all men", would you assume that it meant "love some men"? Yet, in spite of the clear declarative statements, and the absence of any verse which specifically states that Christ did not in fact die for everyone, we are supposed to change the meaning of 'all'. I just can't accept that my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Reformer Joe | 87835 | ||
"1) How would my understanding of Rom. 11 negate Rom. 9, when Romans 11 specifically states that those who were hardened can be grafted in again?" Romans 11 deals with collectives of people, and speaks of partial hardening of groups (I think the text supports the view that "branches" are not individual human beings). Romans 9 speaks much more precisely about individual destiny (where "vessels" do speak of individuals. And we have two distinct categories of individuals: a) the ones from among both Jews and Gentiles on whom God has mercy, who are molded and prepared beforehand for honorable use and for glory, to whom God will make known the riches of his glory b) the ones from among both Jews and Gentiles whom God hardens, who are molded and prepared beforehand for common use and for destruction, whom God patiently endures for the time being and on whom God will demonstrate his power and wrath Romans 9-11 answers the big question: What about God's covenant promises to the Jews? If salvation is for the Jew first and also for the Greek, why were so many more Greeks being saved and the majority of the physical descendents of Abraham rejecting their Messiah to their own destruction. Romans 9 is addressing the first part of Paul's answer: all of those physically descended from Israel are not "childen of the promise." Romans 11 concludes the argument by addressing the direct hypothetical charge that God has rejected his people wholesale. Paul uses himself as an example of the falsehood of such a statement, and then employs the example of those who had not bowed the knee to Baal in Elijah's day (showing that even in the OT God preserved only a remnant of the covenant people), and then goes on to say: "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice." --Romans 11:5 The remnant is the group of those who are Abraham's children according to the flesh and according to the promise. By their own design? No, but rather "according to God's gracious choice." The Holy Spirit then says: "What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened" Again, two groups: the chosen remnant who obtained Christ's righteousness, and the rest who were hardened, according to God's choice. Then we get to the partial hardening and the cutting off and the grafting in of the branches, which do not refer to individual Jews and Gentiles (since a single unbelieving Jew was not born attached to the root). From our human temporal standpoint, the masses among Abraham's descendants who embrace Jesus the Messiah will be grafted in again collectively. "And so all Israel will be saved." --Joe! |
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11 | Our name erased or added to Book of Life | Rev 13:8 | Morant61 | 87848 | ||
Greetings Joe! I disagree my friend that individuals are not in view at all in Rom. 11, but even if you are correct inviduals are included in the groups of people. So, my point still stands that some who were hardened are said to be able to be grafted again in Rom. 11. Even if Rom. 11 is refering to a group, the group must still be composed of individuals! ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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