Results 1 - 3 of 3
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Isn't Baptism neccessary for salvation?? | Rom 10:9 | Reformer Joe | 73303 | ||
"But the particulars of how to demonstrate faith HAVE CHANGED." So the Mosaic law, stating that we should have no other gods besides Yahweh, that we should not murder or steal or commit adultery, has no value for the "New Testament" Christian? Are we no longer to love God wholeheartedly (Deuteronomy 6:5) or to love our neighbor as ourselves (Leviticus 19:18)? The Bible teaches that everyone is instinctively aware of God's will, because they are given a moral sense, a conscience (Romans 2:14-16). The pagan in the deepest reaches of the rain forest is not off the hook because no one has shared God's law with him. The fact is that Romans 4:1-5 points to Abraham as being justified before God as a result of his belief (referring back to Genesis 15). His subsequent obedience in circumcising his offspring and preparing to sacrifice his son were RESULTS of saving faith. They did not contribute to the righteousness already credited to him. "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" --Romans 4:1-5 You can't get much more of a contrast than we see in that verse. While true faith results in works, Paul makes it absolutely, undeniably clear that the works of an individual do not result in the imputed righteousness of Christ. It is faith/repentance YIELDS Christ's righteousness PLUS works and not faith/repentance PLUS works YIELDS Christ's righteousness The order is very important, and the Pharisees and the Judaizers made the fatal mistake of choosing the second formula. Getting back to baptism, it should not be separated from faith and repentance in the unbaptized adult convert. The two are united, and baptism is not optional. However, the distinction must always be made between the two. The union of the sign (baptism) and the thing signified (the "washing of regeneration") must be maintained without claiming that both are the same thing. --Joe! |
||||||
2 | Isn't Baptism neccessary for salvation?? | Rom 10:9 | disciplerami | 73309 | ||
You write: "So the Mosaic law, stating that we should have no other gods besides Yahweh, that we should not murder or steal or commit adultery, has no value for the "New Testament" Christian? Are we no longer to love God wholeheartedly (Deuteronomy 6:5) or to love our neighbor as ourselves (Leviticus 19:18)?" I didn't say you can now be IMMORAL because the Old Law ended. Moral issues remain the same. I will state it again. The particulars of how faith is demonstrated are different. Israelites had to be circumcised, go to three yearly feasts, etc. Abraham had to do the things God called him to do, and he had to do them by faith [i.e. he did not trust that his works saved him]. The New Testament offers a new set of particulars. Baptism is unique, in that it is directly related to the salvation moment. God saves at the point of being baptized in faith. "You are sons of God through faith, for all of you who are baptized into Christ, have clothed yourselves with Christ." Hence, a different set of particulars, but the same faith throughout all human history. But morality hasn't changed. It has always been sinful to murder, to dishonor parents, to bow to idols, etc. I don't think the two things you mentioned can be separated. The two things are intersecting in baptism. Titus' statement, "by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" is showing that the outward "having our bodies washed with pure water" is met with the internal sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. The formula you mention has a glaring inconsistency, I think. faith/repentance is no different than saying faith/works. Baptism, when properly received, is not a WORK in the negative sense. It is a work of faith. The apostle Paul said he was made an apostle to "bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH" (Rom.1:5; 16:26). The apostle praised the Thessalonians "work of faith" (1 Thess 1:3). James says "faith without works is dead." Peter was telling the listeners on the day of repentance to repent and be baptized, i.e. turn away from sin and get immersed into Christ. The response of faith was seen by 3,000 or so when they got baptized. Their salvation moment was right then, "and 3,000 were added that day."' Good day. |
||||||
3 | Isn't Baptism neccessary for salvation?? | Rom 10:9 | Reformer Joe | 73324 | ||
"I didn't say you can now be IMMORAL because the Old Law ended. Moral issues remain the same." The moral issues I mentioned were all included in the "Old" Law. Seems that the old may not be so old after all... "The particulars of how faith is demonstrated are different. Israelites had to be circumcised, go to three yearly feasts, etc." Israelite infants demonstrated their faith by being circumcised? "Abraham had to do the things God called him to do, and he had to do them by faith [i.e. he did not trust that his works saved him]." But we see that Abraham did not always do the things that pleased God. How much working by faith did he have to do before he was declared righteous? What does Romans 4:5 say? You wrote: 'God saves at the point of being baptized in faith. "You are sons of God through faith, for all of you who are baptized into Christ, have clothed yourselves with Christ."' This verse does not say that we are saved at the point of baptism. "The formula you mention has a glaring inconsistency, I think. faith/repentance is no different than saying faith/works." Well, since repentance is a change of mind (Gr. "metanoia"), it is not rightly considered a work, but rather an attitude adjustment in regard to one's personal sin. One could condider repentance to be an aspect of saving faith, since embracing Christ in faith requires a rejection of the previous love of one's sin. However, repentance (like faith) is not a work, but a state of mind that brings about works. But what was credited to Abraham (and to us) as righteousness? You wrote: "Baptism, when properly received, is not a WORK in the negative sense." I don't see anything commanded by God in Scripture that could be considered "a work in the negative sense." What works fall into this category? And where do you see the term "negative works" in Romans 4:1-5? And I say that a "faith" that doesn't result in works is not a real faith at all. Nonetheless, Romans 4 makes it transparent that Abraham was credited with righteousness prior to any works at all -- before circumcision, before the Isaac incident. Again, the order is important. Was Abraham justified before or after circumcision? --Joe! |
||||||