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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55513 | ||
Dear all: 1) Philippians 2:6, KJV, taken by itself, and according to this translation of the Greek, it would appear that Jesus considered it appropriate to be equal to God. However, consider the context first. (Philippians 2:3-11) a) Philippians 2:3-5 says: "In humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." (NIV) So, we should be humble and unselfish. Then Paul says: "Let this mind be in you." What mind or attitude? One of humility and unselfishness! Then he says: "Which was also in Christ Jesus." So what was Jesus' mind or attitude? One of humility and unselfishness. So in verse 6, would you say Jesus not 'thinking it robbery to be equal to the Most High God' is an example of humility and unselfishness? Of course not! It would completely undermine Paul's persuasive argument and convince no one. Then verse 7 says: "[Jesus] made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." This is genuine humility and unselfishness! Then verse 8 says: "He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death." Even a humiliating death. Then verse 9 says: "God also hath highly exalted him." So rather than proudly and selfishly exalting himself, Jesus was exalted by God. Finally, verse 11 shows how it was all for "the glory of God the Father." Not Jesus' own glory. b) Notice the NIV translation of verse 6: "[Christ Jesus] did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." 2) Romans 9:5 says: "Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (KJV) Notice these translations: a) "Theirs too (so far as natural descent goes) is the Christ. (Blessed for evermore be the God who is over all! Amen.)" (Moffat) b) "And of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God is over all be blessed for ever. Amen." (RSV) c) "From them, in natural descent, sprang the Messiah. May God, supreme over all, be blessed for ever! Amen." (NEB) d) "Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever! Amen." (TEV) e) "From them came the Messiah (I speak of his human origins). Blessed forever be God who is over all! Amen." (NAB) Seems like Paul is saying God is over Jesus, too! That he is blessing God for having made all these provisions, including the Messiah. 3) "First born points to eternal preexistence." Why? He says: "We must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things." Bias or sincerity? Strong's says firstborn is derived from: protos; foremost (in time, place, order or importance); and tikto; "to produce." Colossians 1:15: "The firstborn of every creature." A word is known by the company it keeps. Notice that this is in the passive tense. E.g.: i) He created all things. (Active) ii) In him all things were created. (Passive) iii) He lifted his leg. (Active) iv) In a sling his leg was lifted. (Passive) Jesus here is the instrumentality that God used to create all things. Ephesians 3:9 clearly says: "God, who created all things." (Active) Revelation 4:11 says: "[God] created all things." (Active) Colossians 1:18 says: "[Jesus is] the firstborn from the dead." The first resurrected from the dead? No. (1 Kings 17:22) The first to be resurrected to eternal, heavenly life? Yes. (John 3:13; Acts 2:34) So, yes, Jesus does have "the preeminence" in all things. 4) Romans 1:4. Strong's says "horizo" means "to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (fig.) to appoint, decree, specify:-declare, determine, limit, ordain." The question is, How many translators use "appoint" in Romans 1:4? 5) As far as the long list of scriptures you cited, Makarios, I'll quote McClintock and Strong's Cyclopedia which advocates the Trinity doctrine but acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20, and the same reasoning could be used for the others, that this text: "Taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity." What do you think about 1 Timothy 5:21, which says: "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels"? Would this indicate a Trinity? Or, Do we have four now? 6) "Only-begotten" means "single of its kind." Jesus is "the single of its kind" as regards being a son of God: God "gave his only-begotten Son." This word comes from Greek words that mean "sole" "single" and "cause to be." So, again Jesus was "born" or "begotten." Colossians 1:16 shows how Jesus can be "firstborn" and "only-begotten." "All other things were created" using Jesus as an agency or instrumentality. Jesus was created by God alone as "the first of his works." (Proverbs 8:22) Hence Jesus was created by God alone, using no instrumentality, being of a "single" kind among God's sons. (Job 1:6; 38:7) Stokey. |
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2 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | srbaegon | 55539 | ||
Hello Stokey 1) You've done a nice job of proving the deity of the pre-incarnate Christ, except for verse 6. You ignore that the verse says Jesus existed in the form of God. A good definition of humility is found in Romans 12:3 (ESV) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. Jesus, being very God, could not think more highly of himself because he had all glory, and as God, all glory was due to him. He emptied himself of that glory to be born and put on flesh. 2) Or consider Romans 9:5 (ESV) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. This translation expressly states that Jesus is the one, true God. But rather than debate translations, let's look at content. Paul is simply stating that the Christ was born of Israel and that God should be praised for it. It does not infer that God is above Jesus. 3) No, Jesus has the preeminence because he was, is, and always will be the one, true God. 4) Well, you've just ruined your previous argument. By your reasoning then, Jesus was merely appointed the Son of God, and then according to Rom 1:4 only at his resurrection. But earlier you said he was a son before his incarnation. 5) Grasping at straws, are we? 6) Let me help with a different translation of Proverbs 8:22 (ESV) "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old." It's true that LXX has "created" for "possessed," but one cannot build a theology via a single manuscript. The idea of "possessed" is "fathered," thus demonstrating the eternal sonship of Jesus. And you are correct that Jesus is unique. He was God who willing put on humanity for us. Steve |
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