Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | 2ndSamuel22 | 55624 | ||
Dear stokeyhk, To start with, please don't quote the NIV to me. I don't use it, I don't trust it. Let us quote Romans 9:5 from the KJV(my personal favorite, but I digress): "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." If you also read the verses before v5, you will see that the Apostle Paul is talking about Jesus' earthly bloodline being Jewish. That is the antecedent for the word "Whose". Also, notice, in the KJV, there is a comma after "Christ came", and in the translations you use, there is a period. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown have this to say on that subject: "To get rid of the bright testimony here borne to the supreme divinity of Christ, various expedients have been adopted: (1) To place a period, either after the words "concerning the flesh Christ came," rendering the next clause as a doxology to the Father--"God who is over all be blessed for ever"; or after the word "all"--thus, "Christ came, who is over all: God be blessed." See how easy it is to remove the Deity of Christ? In fact, in the KJV, you could almost put a comma between "God" and "blessed", and it would read even more clearly: "Christ came, who is over all, God, blessed for ever. Amen." Besides, in the other translations, the phrase "God be blessed forever", with the period before it, is akward. Have you ever read these versions and wondered how it fits in with the rest of the verse? It doesn't. Why? Because they are wrong! Besides, it doesn't fit in with Paul's style of writing. Now, the NKJV says thus: "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." Notice, "who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." again, Jesus IS GOD!! Makarios said, "First born points to eternal preexistence." You said, "Why?" Why? Because in Colossians 1:16, "He is the firstborn over all creation"(NKJV) Using your own argument concerning the meaning of 'firstborn', He has existed since before creation. And you still have not answered concerning Genesis 1:1 in relation to Colossians 1:16. (By the way--about Proverbs 8:22--You really need to go back and read the whole chapter!! Solomon here is talking about WISDOM. This is NOT a Messaianic prophecy!!!) Now, touching on 'only begotten': Jesus the Word was in the bosom of God(John 1:18) since the beginning(John 1:1). He was 'begotten' in the sense that he was born in an earthly manner to walk the earth. His fleshly body was 'born', but He has always been(John 8:58--"Before Abraham was, I AM") Here's another verse for you to explore: Colossians 2:9--"For in him[Jesus] dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily."(KJV) Strong's defines Godhead thus: 1) deity 1a) the state of BEING GOD, Godhead[capitalization added for emphasis] I truly hope you will research your position on this issue more clearly, and realize that Jesus was, is and always will be, God the Son!! God is my Strength and Power, and He makes my way perfect!! 2nd Samuel 22 PS: You wrote, "So in [Philippians 2:6], would you say Jesus not 'thinking it robbery to be equal to the Most High God' is an example of humility and unselfishness? Of course not!" So, what is meant by this verse, in your opinion? And the NIV tranlation of that verse is absurd! Please use another version. |
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2 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55635 | ||
Running out of space. "Only-begotten." John 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time." God "gave his only-begotten Son." (John 3:16) 'God sent his Son into the world.' (John 3:17) Not Mary's "only-begotten Son" but God's. He was such before he was sent into the world, yes all the time he was "in the bosom position with the Father." Jesus "has always been." Shouldn't it be: Jesus has "before Abraham" been? (John 8:57) A question for you: If Jesus is "God the Son," why did he call his Father "the only true God"? (John 17:1-3) Stokey. |
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3 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | BradK | 55651 | ||
Dear Stokeyhk, I'd like to pursue a different line of reasoning. I think we would both agree that the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The Lord of the OT is Jehovah. For support lets look at Isaiah 43:11, "I am the Lord (Jehovah), and there is no savior besides me." Also, we have Isaiah 45:19-21. In vs. 21 we read,..."there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior, there is none except Me..." So, could we agree that the OT scripture clearly teaches that there is but one God,(Jehovah) and that He is the only savior? When we come to the book of Titus, we have a rather interesting dilemma. I'll list the phrases in the verses from the NASB. Titus 1:3 ..."God our SAVIOR,..." 1:4 ... God the Father and Christ Jesus our SAVIOR." 2:10 ..."God our SAVIOR"... 2:11 ..."For the grace of God has appeared, bringing SALVATION to all men,"... 2:13 ..."our great God and SAVIOR, Christ Jesus,"... 3:4 ... "the kindness of God our SAVIOR"... 3:6 ... "through Jesus Christ our SAVIOR,"... Hopefully, these verse will suffice to show that both God, AND Jesus Christ are referred to and called SAVIOR! If there is only one God and only one Savior, then who is Jesus Christ? He is both referred to as God and savior. You have an inexplicable dilemma based upon scripture itself.There must be an acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is in fact God. No amount of scripture twisting can show otherwise. What saith the scripture? Speaking the Truth In Love, BradK |
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4 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55697 | ||
Does everyone else in the forum agree that "OT scripture clearly teaches that there is but one God, Jehovah"? So, does this mean you don't believe the Trinity is taught in the OT? Isaiah 43:11: "I-I am Jehovah, and beside me there is no savior." Consider the context. Verse 3: "I am Jehovah you God, the Holy One of Israel your Savior." Verse 5-7: "Bring my sons from far off, and my daughters from the extremity of the earth, everyone that is called by my name." Verse 9: "Let national groups be gathered together. Who is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them furnish their witnesses." Verse 10: "'You [Israel] are my witnesses,' is the utterance of Jehovah." So no salvation was to be found for Israel from any of these "national groups." Judges 3:9 says: "The LORD [Jehovah] raised up a saviour to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel." Isaiah 19:20: "[The LORD (Jehovah)] shall send them a saviour, a great one." Nehemiah 9:27: "[Jehovah] gavest them saviours, who saved them." From these it can be seen that Jehovah is the Source of true salvation, and he does so by raising up individual saviours. Were these individuals God? Was Othniel God? Of course not! Now let's turn to Titus. But before we do, let's see it in the light of Jude 25, NIV, which says: "To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord." So God saves by raising up Jesus. (John 3:16) Yes, both Jehovah and Jesus are saviors, just as Jehovah and Othniel were saviors. This agrees with Acts 13:23: "God raised up for Israel a Savior-Jesus." So, in the context of Isaiah 43, God was the only Source of salvation for Israel. That has always remained true. There is no other Source of salvation. From what source did the savior Jesus come? Acts 13:23 makes it clear. So when we get the complete picture form the scriptures, its not "inexplicable." By the way, just in case someone wants to equate Jehovah with Jesus using Titus 2:13, the Greek reads "of savior" and the New American Bible, for example, correctly translates it as "of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus." Stokey. |
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5 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | BradK | 55733 | ||
Dear Stokey, You never directly answered my question :) 1. There is only ONE God (Jehovah), who has never given the glory of His Godhead to any created being, whoever he may be. This God is the ONLY SAVIOR. The examples given should be sufficient to show to anyone except those whose minds are already made up and biased, that the God of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New. 2. I most definitely believe the Trinity is revealed in the OT! cf. Gen 1:1( Elohim- Heb. plural- more than 2, a least 3), Gen.1:26, ..."Let Us make man"... 3. I'll say something for the unwarranted separation of "the great God" from our "Savior Christ Jesus" in Titus 2:13. Either the translators did not know or deliberately ignored a principle of Greek grammar which states that when kai, the copulative 'and', connects two nouns of the same case, and if the article precedes the first noun, the latter always refers to the same person that is expressed by the first noun. The NASB, NKJV, RV, NIV correctly renders Titus 2:13 "Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" where one person is meant, not two. Respectfully Yours In Christ, BradK |
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6 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55883 | ||
1. Matthew 4:10; John 8:54; Matthew 22:41-45; Psalm 110:1; Philippians 2:9-11. 2. You say plural is "more than 2." The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures says Elohim is "almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute." It denotes "greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God." 3. Which translation of Titus 2:13 agrees with "God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior"? (Titus 1:4) You say the NIV "correctly renders Titus 2:13" and "either the translators did not know or deliberately ignored a principle of Greek grammar." Why, then, does the NIV render the same principle as "our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" and relegate "God and Lord, Jesus Christ" to a footnote, but not do the same in Titus 2:13? The Greek Testament states that "of the great God and of the Savior" "satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle's way of writing." Stokey |
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7 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | srbaegon | 55887 | ||
Hello Stokey Matt 4:10 states only God is to receive worship, yet the gospels are replete with examples of Jesus receiving worship. This would make him out to be a scoundrel and not fit to save anyone including himself. Steve |
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8 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55950 | ||
For example? Stokey. |
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9 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | srbaegon | 55985 | ||
Hello Stokey Surely you jest. Explicit mention: Matthew 2:11 (ESV) And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh. Matthew 14:33 (ESV) And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." Matthew 28:9 (ESV) And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Matthew 28:17 (ESV) And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. Mark 5:6 (ESV) And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. Luke 24:52 (ESV) And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, John 9:38 (ESV) He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. Implicit mention: Luke 17:15-16 (ESV) Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice; [16] and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving him thanks. Now he was a Samaritan. John 12:3 (ESV) Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. Steve |
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10 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | kalos | 56000 | ||
'...the [Greek] word "proskuneo." Whenever it is in reference to Jesus, they [JWs] absolutely will not let it be translated as worship.' Steve: I believe you will find the following information regarding the word 'worship' to be helpful. Grace to you, kalos ************* 'The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship) ' The chart below is a list of every occurrence of the Greek word "proskuneo" that I could find in The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (1969). (Note: the chart is not reproducible here. To see the chart, go to www.carm.org/jw/nwt_proskuneo.htm). This work was produced by the New World Translation Bible committee in accordance with the Watchtower organization. An interlinear is a word for word translation of the Greek text. Included in this Watchtower interlinear is the text of the New World Translation Bible placed in a column on each page so the reader can see exactly how the NWT renders each occurrence of the verb "proskuneo." ' The word "proskuneo" means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship." Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God, they maintain that He is not to be worshipped. So, how does the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society translate the word "proskuneo" in their Greek New Testament in reference to Jesus and other objects of adoration? The NWT never translates the word into "worship" when it references Jesus. It does, however, render the word as "worship" in regards to the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, and an angel. Of course, they correctly translate it as "worship" when it deals with God. ' Is the New World Translation biased against worshipping Jesus? It would surely seem so, especially since the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc., all translate the word as "worship" in reference to Jesus. ' What is curious is to note that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society used to teach that worshipping Jesus was acceptable: ' "The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Yes we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God. The word ‘God’ signifies a ‘mighty one,’ and our Lord was indeed a mighty one. So it is stated in the first two verses of the gospel of John. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father. . ." (The Watchtower, July 15, 1898, p. 216.) ' It seems that as the Watchtower theology changed, they needed a Bible consistent with those changes; hence, the New World Translation. Following is a chart listing every appearance of the word "proskuneo" in the New World Translation. Let's see if the bias of the Watchtower organization is obvious. (Note: the chart is not reproducible here. To see the chart, go to www.carm.org/jw/nwt_proskuneo.htm). (...) 'As you can see, the NWT is very biased in how it translates the word "proskuneo." Whenever it is in reference to Jesus, they absolutely will not let it be translated as worship. Why? Because they erringly deny that Jesus is God in flesh and their Bible reflects their bias. This is not how proper theology is done. ' The Watchtower Organization has changed the Bible to suit its needs. ' (www.carm.org/jw/nwt_proskuneo.htm) |
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11 | Who is Jesus Christ? | John 9:24 | srbaegon | 56031 | ||
Hello kalos Thanks for all the info you've been supplying. Steve |
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