Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55513 | ||
Dear all: 1) Philippians 2:6, KJV, taken by itself, and according to this translation of the Greek, it would appear that Jesus considered it appropriate to be equal to God. However, consider the context first. (Philippians 2:3-11) a) Philippians 2:3-5 says: "In humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." (NIV) So, we should be humble and unselfish. Then Paul says: "Let this mind be in you." What mind or attitude? One of humility and unselfishness! Then he says: "Which was also in Christ Jesus." So what was Jesus' mind or attitude? One of humility and unselfishness. So in verse 6, would you say Jesus not 'thinking it robbery to be equal to the Most High God' is an example of humility and unselfishness? Of course not! It would completely undermine Paul's persuasive argument and convince no one. Then verse 7 says: "[Jesus] made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." This is genuine humility and unselfishness! Then verse 8 says: "He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death." Even a humiliating death. Then verse 9 says: "God also hath highly exalted him." So rather than proudly and selfishly exalting himself, Jesus was exalted by God. Finally, verse 11 shows how it was all for "the glory of God the Father." Not Jesus' own glory. b) Notice the NIV translation of verse 6: "[Christ Jesus] did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." 2) Romans 9:5 says: "Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (KJV) Notice these translations: a) "Theirs too (so far as natural descent goes) is the Christ. (Blessed for evermore be the God who is over all! Amen.)" (Moffat) b) "And of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God is over all be blessed for ever. Amen." (RSV) c) "From them, in natural descent, sprang the Messiah. May God, supreme over all, be blessed for ever! Amen." (NEB) d) "Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever! Amen." (TEV) e) "From them came the Messiah (I speak of his human origins). Blessed forever be God who is over all! Amen." (NAB) Seems like Paul is saying God is over Jesus, too! That he is blessing God for having made all these provisions, including the Messiah. 3) "First born points to eternal preexistence." Why? He says: "We must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things." Bias or sincerity? Strong's says firstborn is derived from: protos; foremost (in time, place, order or importance); and tikto; "to produce." Colossians 1:15: "The firstborn of every creature." A word is known by the company it keeps. Notice that this is in the passive tense. E.g.: i) He created all things. (Active) ii) In him all things were created. (Passive) iii) He lifted his leg. (Active) iv) In a sling his leg was lifted. (Passive) Jesus here is the instrumentality that God used to create all things. Ephesians 3:9 clearly says: "God, who created all things." (Active) Revelation 4:11 says: "[God] created all things." (Active) Colossians 1:18 says: "[Jesus is] the firstborn from the dead." The first resurrected from the dead? No. (1 Kings 17:22) The first to be resurrected to eternal, heavenly life? Yes. (John 3:13; Acts 2:34) So, yes, Jesus does have "the preeminence" in all things. 4) Romans 1:4. Strong's says "horizo" means "to mark out or bound ("horizon"), i.e. (fig.) to appoint, decree, specify:-declare, determine, limit, ordain." The question is, How many translators use "appoint" in Romans 1:4? 5) As far as the long list of scriptures you cited, Makarios, I'll quote McClintock and Strong's Cyclopedia which advocates the Trinity doctrine but acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20, and the same reasoning could be used for the others, that this text: "Taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity." What do you think about 1 Timothy 5:21, which says: "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels"? Would this indicate a Trinity? Or, Do we have four now? 6) "Only-begotten" means "single of its kind." Jesus is "the single of its kind" as regards being a son of God: God "gave his only-begotten Son." This word comes from Greek words that mean "sole" "single" and "cause to be." So, again Jesus was "born" or "begotten." Colossians 1:16 shows how Jesus can be "firstborn" and "only-begotten." "All other things were created" using Jesus as an agency or instrumentality. Jesus was created by God alone as "the first of his works." (Proverbs 8:22) Hence Jesus was created by God alone, using no instrumentality, being of a "single" kind among God's sons. (Job 1:6; 38:7) Stokey. |
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2 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | 2ndSamuel22 | 55624 | ||
Dear stokeyhk, To start with, please don't quote the NIV to me. I don't use it, I don't trust it. Let us quote Romans 9:5 from the KJV(my personal favorite, but I digress): "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." If you also read the verses before v5, you will see that the Apostle Paul is talking about Jesus' earthly bloodline being Jewish. That is the antecedent for the word "Whose". Also, notice, in the KJV, there is a comma after "Christ came", and in the translations you use, there is a period. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown have this to say on that subject: "To get rid of the bright testimony here borne to the supreme divinity of Christ, various expedients have been adopted: (1) To place a period, either after the words "concerning the flesh Christ came," rendering the next clause as a doxology to the Father--"God who is over all be blessed for ever"; or after the word "all"--thus, "Christ came, who is over all: God be blessed." See how easy it is to remove the Deity of Christ? In fact, in the KJV, you could almost put a comma between "God" and "blessed", and it would read even more clearly: "Christ came, who is over all, God, blessed for ever. Amen." Besides, in the other translations, the phrase "God be blessed forever", with the period before it, is akward. Have you ever read these versions and wondered how it fits in with the rest of the verse? It doesn't. Why? Because they are wrong! Besides, it doesn't fit in with Paul's style of writing. Now, the NKJV says thus: "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." Notice, "who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." again, Jesus IS GOD!! Makarios said, "First born points to eternal preexistence." You said, "Why?" Why? Because in Colossians 1:16, "He is the firstborn over all creation"(NKJV) Using your own argument concerning the meaning of 'firstborn', He has existed since before creation. And you still have not answered concerning Genesis 1:1 in relation to Colossians 1:16. (By the way--about Proverbs 8:22--You really need to go back and read the whole chapter!! Solomon here is talking about WISDOM. This is NOT a Messaianic prophecy!!!) Now, touching on 'only begotten': Jesus the Word was in the bosom of God(John 1:18) since the beginning(John 1:1). He was 'begotten' in the sense that he was born in an earthly manner to walk the earth. His fleshly body was 'born', but He has always been(John 8:58--"Before Abraham was, I AM") Here's another verse for you to explore: Colossians 2:9--"For in him[Jesus] dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily."(KJV) Strong's defines Godhead thus: 1) deity 1a) the state of BEING GOD, Godhead[capitalization added for emphasis] I truly hope you will research your position on this issue more clearly, and realize that Jesus was, is and always will be, God the Son!! God is my Strength and Power, and He makes my way perfect!! 2nd Samuel 22 PS: You wrote, "So in [Philippians 2:6], would you say Jesus not 'thinking it robbery to be equal to the Most High God' is an example of humility and unselfishness? Of course not!" So, what is meant by this verse, in your opinion? And the NIV tranlation of that verse is absurd! Please use another version. |
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3 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55632 | ||
1) Colossians 1:15. The NKJV reads in part: "The firstborn over all creation." The KJV reads: "The firstborn of every creature." Notice the expression "the firstborn of." Here we're not concerned with "firstborn" by itself. (Hebrews 12:16) Rather its "the firstborn of." Each time this expression appears in the Bible before here, it refers to part of the group when speaking of living creatures. E.g. "the firstborn of Pharaoh," is one of Pharaoh's family, and "the firstborn of beasts," are themselves animals. (Exodus 11:5) So, everywhere else, "the firstborn of" is part of the group! To translate the Greek as "the firstborn over" changes it to a place of preeminence or authority. So, the question is: Does the Greek say "the firstborn over" or "the firstborn of"? Well, "the firstborn over" contradicts Revelation 3:14, NKJV, where Jesus himself says that he is "the Beginning of the creation of God." Whereas "the firstborn of" agrees with it and the Greek! 2) Notice the context: Verse 3: "We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." No equality there! Verse 16: "In him" (Int.) not "by him." Have you compared the translation of the Greek "panta" in Luke 13:2, NKJV? It translates it as "all [other]." Colossians 2:3 says: "In whom [Jesus] are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." What's the point of saying this? Verses 4 and 8 answer: "Lest anyone should deceive you." "Lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deception . . . not according to Christ." So Jesus possesses superior "wisdom and knowledge" as verse 9 shows: "For in him dwells all the fullness [put there by the Father, Colossians 1:19]." "All the fullness" of what? Verse 3 mentions "wisdom and knowledge." Verse 9, NKJV its "the Godhead." "The divinity." (Int.) "The Deity." (NIV) "The fulness of God's nature." (Weymouth) "The perfection of God."(LB) This word "Godhead" is mentioned three times in the KJV: (a) Acts 17:29; (b) Romans 1:20; (c) Colossians 2:9. Strong's says (a) means: "godlike (neut. as noun, divinity)." This indicates a quality in the neuter tense; (b) means: "divinity (abstract)"; (c) means: "divinity (abstract)." We can see it doesn't mean "God." Rather its abstract; a divine quality; spiritual qualities. This agrees with "all the treasures of [godly] wisdom and knowledge" and is in contrast with 'human philosophy and tradition.' 3) Colossians 3:1 says: "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God." The "things above" are spiritual. Christ is not God himself, but "sitting at the right hand of God." 4) Philippians 2:6. The NKJV rendering does not harmonize with humility and unselfishness, rather the opposite. (Genesis 3:5) The New Jerusalem Bible says: Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped." What does the Greek word rendered "robbery" mean? Strong's says: "to seize." Lit. "snatching." It would be totally inappropriate for a sinful human to have the "selfish ambition" of being equal to God. Even Jesus, in the position of God's firstborn Son and in God's form, not a slave's form, still didn't have the "selfish ambition" of being equal with God. This would be a greater display of humility because a son is greater than "a slave"! 5) Romans 9:5. The question is, Why do some translations contain a period after "according to the flesh, Christ came" or "from Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race." Is it primarily to show whether Jesus is God or not? Well, consider the context and the Greek? Romans 15:6 records Paul as saying we should "glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." So that would mean Paul was contradicting himself, wouldn't it, if he meant to teach Jesus was God? The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays says "[the (thing) according to flesh] in reading must be followed by a pause,-a pause which is lengthened by the special emphasis given to the [according to flesh] by the [the (thing)]." He says the preceding sentence is complete. Further he says the recounting of all the blessings given to the Israelites-"the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the service [of God], and the promises . . . the fathers and . . . the Christ"-"naturally suggests an ascription of praise and thanksgiving to God as the Being who rules over all; while a doxology is also suggested by the [Amen]." He says all the oldest manuscripts of this verse contain a period after "flesh." Then verses 6-24 point to God's authority, his being "over all." Stokey. |
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4 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | 2ndSamuel22 | 55642 | ||
Dear stokey, 1) Colossians 1:15--Yes, He is the first born over every group of creatures:"The firstborn of EVERY creature." So, Jesus is still preexistent before all creation(As in, "Reuben, Jacob's firstborn--Genesis 35:23) . Besides, look at verse 16: Paul says, "FOR by Him were all things creted...". That word 'for' emphasizes what he says in v15. Thus rendered, "[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God...For by Him were all things created.(see Genesis 1:1)" 2) As far as what Strong's says about the word 'Godhead', again, as I said in my last post, "1a) the state of BEING GOD, Godhead[capitalization added for emphasis]" 3) Touching on Colossians 3:1, let us move two verses down--Colossians 3:3"...and your life is hid with Christ in God" Christ is in God, and is One with God. 4) The reason Philippians 2:6 does seem to not harmonize with humility is this: There is no need! It is not robbery for Jesus to consider Himself one with God!! He IS God! I wish I could continue this discussion this week, but I will have to pick it up at a later date. I am leaving for Arizona Friday for my first mission trip(to witness to the Navajo), and the next few days will be jam packed for me. I will read what you respond with, and if I can possibly give a short answer I will. God is my Strength and Power, and He makes my way perfect!! 2nd Samuel 22 |
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5 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55711 | ||
1) Reuben was "the firstborn of" Jacob's children. So still part of the group. Yes, the word "for" gives the reason for the statement "the firstborn of all creation." Why can we say Jesus is the firstborn? Because all other creation came after and "through" him. (Colossians 1:16) The word "through" shows that Jesus is not the Source. As for Genesis 1:1, "the heavens" were not the first creation of God. (Revelation 3:14) Proverbs 8:27 says: "When he prepared the heavens, I was there." Genesis 1:26 says: "God said, Let us MAKE man in our image." (Colossians 1:15a) Verse 27, however, says: "God CREATED man." Jesus agreed with this in Matthew 19:4. 2) Strong's nos. 2304, 2305, 2320. 3) Genuine Christians are "in God," too. 4) Yes, Philippians 2:6 does not harmonize with humility! Being "equal with God" is not the same as 'being God.' The Navajo translation of the Bible was published in 1985, after 41 years of work! "Jehovah" appears in the Navajo Bible in Psalm 68:4. The brochure: "Enjoy Life on Earth Forever" was released in the Navajo language by Jehovah's Witnesses in 1995. Say "Hello!" to the local brothers in the Kingdom Halls in the Navajo and Hopi resevations. Stokey. |
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6 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | flinkywood | 55718 | ||
Stokey, The Watchtower, 2/15/79, P.31: "Jesus Christ, whom we understand from the scriptures to be Michael, the archangel." What scriptures say that Jesus is Michael? Colin. | ||||||
7 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | stokeyhk | 55729 | ||
The teaching that Michael, the archangel is Jesus Christ before he came to earth and since his return to heaven is not exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses. The name of Michael is found in Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9; Revelation 12:7. The term "the archangel" is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NIV) and Jude 9. Daniel 10:13 says: "Michael, one of the chief princes." Daniel 10:21 says: "Michael, your [Daniel's] prince." Daniel 12:1 says: "Michael, the great prince who protects your [Daniel's] people." Jude 9 says: "Michael the archangel." Revelation 12:7 says: "Michael and his angels." Michael means "Who is like God?" This points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael is the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah's sovereignty and destroying God's enemies. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NIV), the command of Jesus for the resurrection to begin is described as "the voice of the archangel," and Jude 9 says the archangel is Michael. If the designation "archangel" applied, not to Jesus, but to other angels, then the reference to "the voice of the archangel" would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God. Notice the term is never plural in the Bible, thus implying that there is only one: "THE archangel." Revelation 12:7-12 describes "Michael and his angels" defeating Satan and his angels in connection with kingly authority being conferred on Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:7) Jesus is the one who leads the armies in heaven to destroy the nations of the world. Jesus is the one who will 'crush Satan's head' also. (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16) Daniel 12:1 associates the 'standing up of Michael' to act with authority with an unprecedented "time of distress" during "the time of the end." (Daniel 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21, 40) This fits the experience of the nations in Revelation 19:11-16 and Matthew 24:21. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to the earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God. Stokey. |
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8 | Do you yet say that Jesus was just a man | John 9:24 | srbaegon | 55739 | ||
Hello Stokey You've done a good job of proving Michael is an/the archangel. However, the granting of authority by God for a particular function does not make someone equal to Jesus. Steve |
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