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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88609 | ||
Say Hey Tim, I don't say that God does'nt call everyone or that those He calls can'nt respond. What I do say is, that unless God has mercy and gives them the grace to believe, the natural man will respond negatively, which is consistant with his fallen nature! Adam and Eve responded negatively, with blaming everyone else. Cain replied to God with deceit and a wise-guy remark! This seems to support my point! "I fully believe in the depravity of man. I just don’t believe, as it seems most Calvinists do, that being ‘spiritually dead’ means that a person is now just a lump of inanimate flesh incapable of making choices or thinking anymore! :-)" Now Tim...tut, tut..Is that a fair statement. At least my mis-characterization was based on rational deduction. But maybe the smiley face at the end was to indicate a joke. Because you know that your statement is absurd on it's (smiley) face. "So, it goes back to the extent of the atonement again! :-) You see Christ dying only for some and only drawing some." Uh-oh! Wrong again my friend. I see Christ dying for all the Father sent Him (the elect), and saving all for whom He died. You Said "I see Christ dying for all and drawing all." But not saving all? And, pray tell, who's fault is that. It can't be the Father or the Son for all that the Father gives to Jesus are raised up on the last day. It can't be the Holy Spirit for it His job to apply salvation to those the Father sends to the Son. Now we're back to where we started! :-( Frankly Tim, in this case, your logic escapes me. Your perplexed friend, John |
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2 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 88615 | ||
So who, John, are "all the Father sent Him (Christ)?" Are they not all who hear and CHOOSE to respond to the gospel call? If you say they are the "elect" then who are they but those who hear and believe? Are you saying that man does not have any option whatever whether to believe the gospel and respond to it or reject it? You say that Adam and Eve reponded negatively. What does this do to Calvinism's "I" petal of the TULIP -- irresistible grace? And did Adam and Eve make any theological choices not only before but also after their fall? And did they exhibit that they had any measure of free will? What do the "elect" have to do to be saved? Do they have a choice in the matter or is God going to save them whether they want to be saved or not? --Hank | ||||||
3 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88694 | ||
Dear Hank, You've asked several questions and, God willing, I hope to be able to answer them to your satisfaction. 1. So who, John, are "all the Father sent Him (Christ)?" John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Therefore, I would say all whom the Father draws are those who are raised up on the last day. That is why the elect are called the elect! They are God the Father's chosen people, whom He sends to His Son, so that through The Son's sacrifice on the cross they recieve eternal life. 2. Are they not all who hear and CHOOSE to respond to the gospel call? Yes indeed! They are those who hear and choose. They do so, not because they have any virtue in themselves, but that they are the recipients Of God's mercy and they have been taught by God. John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Here again, this must refer to the elect for all that are drawn by the Father are taught by Him as well and come to the Son. All who come to the Son are rased up on the last day. 3. If you say they are the "elect" then who are they but those who hear and believe? None but they elect hear and believe.John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." 4. Are you saying that man does not have any option whatever whether to believe the gospel and respond to it or reject it? No. I believe that all men have an option, but only those to whom saving grace has been granted opt for Christ. The rest are passed by and are left to continue in their rebellion and hatred of God. John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 5. You say that Adam and Eve reponded negatively. What does this do to Calvinism's "I" petal of the TULIP -- irresistible grace? I'm not certain that I understand this question. Adam and Eve were called by God so that they might recieve God's punishment for disobeying His command. Eve blamed the Serpent and (it might be said) Adam blamed God for giving him Eve in the first place. the least he did was to attempt to shift the blame onto his wife. The first real woking of grace is in the story of Caine and Abel. 6. What does this do to Calvinism's "I" petal of the TULIP -- irresistible grace? The first real woking of grace is in the story of Caine and Abel. As far as TULIP is concerned, one must keep mind that it is an anagram. "Irrisistable" had to be used for lack of a better word starting with "I". Efficatious Grace is more commonly used among calvinists as bearing a much better discription of a Grace that actually works in those to whom God grants it. 7. ... did Adam and Eve make any theological choices not only before but also after their fall? If they did, and if they have been recorded in Scripture, I must plead ignorance as to what they were. 8.What do the "elect" have to do to be saved? In a sense, there is nothing that man can do to save himself. Of course the Bible teaches that faith is the prerequisite to salvation. But even faith comes by way of God's providence.John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven." I'm sure tou would agree that "nothing" means "nothing" not even salvation. 9. What do the "elect" have to do to be saved? I believe by "have" you mean are they compelled against their will. No. The fact is that they are raised from spiritual death to spiritual life and set free to love and to obey their King. Of course christians are still burdened with the remnants of the "old man" and are far from perfect in their capacity to love and obey Him as they ought. Nevertheless, God graciously keeps them from falling irredeemably. In fact He shapes ALL things together for good in their lives (Rom 8:28). 9b. Do they have a choice in the matter or is God going to save them whether they want to be saved or not? The love of God in the hearts of His adopted children is irresitable. 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; You may still disagree Hank. But I have tried my best to answer your questions from God's Word. Grace and Peace, John |
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4 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 88756 | ||
Dear John: While I may not always agree with all of your arguments (as you doubtlessly already are aware :-), I want you to know that I do appreciate and applaud the obvious care with which you constructed your response and the kind spirit in which you delivered it. It is refreshing -- and a fairly rare experience on this forum -- to feel certain that the user we're involved with has read and carefully considered your points and questions before rushing to dash off some sort of half-cocked response. I see so much of that on this forum. Yours was decidedly not of this stripe and, again, I'm grateful for it. I generally refuse to continue to dialogue with forum users who dodge questions and evade issues. But the proof of the pudding that I don't place you in this sad category is the fact that you and I have dialogued for a long time -- and rather peppery dialogue it has been on occasion :-) -- and I wouldn't be displeased at all to dialogue with you again from time to time. It is with these people who insist on their opinions being right and have such little regard for God's word that they don't bother to "rightly divide" it that my patience runs thin. We may disagree on some things, John, but I do believe we agree on more things -- and possibly more important things -- than we disagree. Blessings and grace to you, John. --Hank | ||||||
5 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | John Reformed | 88770 | ||
Dear Hank, Thanks for your generous response. I just wish that I did'nt have to learn everything the hard way. :-O I trust that I have learned at least one very important lesson regarding The Arminius vs Calvin bouts. It is that both sides really are engaged in making certain that God gets ALL the glory for the things He has done. The arminian feels that his free-will stance on salvation puts the burden of damnation on the one who hears but rejects the gospel; thus eliminatig the criticism that God would be unfair to choose one lost soul but pass by another. (If I have mis-characterized this position, I am open to correction). On the other hand, the calvinist holds a very high position regarding God's soveign rule over all aspects of His creation. This would include reprobation as well as election. He is not overly concerned about what the critics say, knowing that even the greatest critics are not exempt from His call (Paul immediately comes to mind). In the words of Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?". My answer is that we are all devoted to gaining as pefect an understanding of God and His Word as we possibly can. We are also commanded to defend what we (christians) believe is sound doctrine. If in our discussions over opposing doctrines, we can be like steel striking steel, (in the best sense of the proverb) we will sharpen one another. In the meantime, we can only pray that God will enlighten each one. Thanks Again Hank, John |
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6 | Can the "natural man" desire Christ? | Rev 13:8 | Hank | 88774 | ||
Dear John Reformed. And thanks to you for your fine response! The more I reflect on the different points of view of so-called Calvinism and Arminianism -- and here I'm speaking of the classic, historical points of each one and not of the extremism that has, alas, crept into both camps -- I see both points of view as having a high view of the divine authority of Scripture and of the absolute sovereignty of God. Both are in essential agreement on the Trinity, the virgin birth and deity of Christ, the depravity of man and his hopeless condition without a Savior. the means of grace which God provided through the shed blood of His Son on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So I don't really "see red" when I read a sensible, well-reasoned and well-documented Calvinist post or an Arminian one. I really don't stake a claim on being a true-blue Arminian any more than I claim to be a Calvinist. There are those who think that if one isn't a Calvinist he's an Arminian by default, but I believe they're wrong in thinking that. Calvinists believe their doctrine can be found in Scripture. So do Arminians. Are they both right? To some degree and in a certain sense I think they are. If therefore certain points of Calvinism are contradictory of certain points of Arminianism, and both the Calvinist and the Arminian is able to cite scriptural proof for his views, does it then follow that the Bible itself is contradictory? No, that is not the right conclusion to reach, not, that is, if we accept Scripture as God's inerrant word, (and I know I do and certainly have every possible reason to believe you do too) for God cannot lie or contradict Himself. So the fault doesn't lie in God's revealed truth but in our imperfect understanding of it, which can surely include our reading into it more than it really reveals (or less). Whether in this life you or I or any other Christian will ever gain perfect understanding of all that God's word has to teach us about His predestination, His foreknowledge, or His election is most doubtful. If I claimed to know all about these things, chances are I would lie to you about other things too :-) So Calvinism and Arminianism have different points of view on some subjects but on many others they are in accord. There is no doubt in my mind that there are redeemed children of the King among both Calvinists and Arminians and in heaven they will be bonded together as one, united in praise and worship of Almighty God and His Christ. What worries me far more than the doctrinal differences between Calvinists and Arminians are the modern fads, cults, and secular humanism organizations masquerading as New Testament churches -- the fads that teach unscriptural stuff such as the 'word of faith' heresy, the 'feel-good' brand of false Christianity, the experiential faddists who place their 'experiences' above what Scripture teaches, the claimants to 'special revelation...and the cults who deny the deity of Christ or introduce another 'bible' claiming it to be the inspired word of God...and the secular humanism organizations who condone and promote homosexuality, abortion, and evolution, deny the inerrancy and relevance of Scripture, the virgin birth and even the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. These are the real enemies of the church. Not Calvinism. Not Arminianism. --Hank | ||||||