Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 134987 | ||
Dear Tim, Catholics certainly say Baptism is necessary but go on to explain that this statement is not absolute. This page from their Catechism is the official stance of the Church, which I am perfectly happy with: VI. The Necessity of Baptism 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM Dalcent |
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2 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 134989 | ||
Greetings Dalcent! We definitely have different views of 'necessary' my friend. :-) Allow me to use an analogy. Suppose that I say that some sort of fuel source is necessary for a combustion engine to run. Then, the engine would not run simply because someone intended to put fuel in it. :-) An engine either has fuel and runs, or it does not have fuel and cannot run. Thus, to me, the cases of the thief on the cross and Cornelius both prove that baptism is not necessary for salvation, though it is certainly normative. So, I would agree with the post where you state that baptism is normative, but I can't agree that it is necessary. p.s. - In the article you cite, the author says, "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." Which verse or verses are they referring to where Jesus says that baptism is 'necessary for salvation'? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 134999 | ||
Dear Tim, The statement "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." is based I believe on John 3:5 - which we have all discussed rather a lot lately. What are you feelings on whether John 3:22's "After this" refers to the passage vv.1-21. Jesus (or rather his disciples) baptizes following the discourse; Jesus baptising occurs nowhere else in the NT. Personally I do not think this is a coincidence. You can read my Profile if you like which I just posted! Your Brother in Christ Dalcent |
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4 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 135012 | ||
Greetings Dalcent! Thanks for posting your profile my friend! I notice that we have a lot in common! :-) We are the same age, roughly the same number of children (but you haven't any grandchildren yet), and a love for history and theology. Concerning the article you quoted, I try to be as literal as possible. In other words, I would never say that Jesus 'said' something unless He actually said it. :-) So, I would differ with the author of your quote. Of course, John 3:5 can be interpreted as being a reference to baptism, but an interpretation is quite different than a direct quote. p.s. - Do you live in the same Notting Hill as in the movie by the same name? :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 135022 | ||
Hi Tim, Yes I live in the same Notting Hill as the movie. I once got asked by a confused Japanese tourist where the tourist attractions of Notting Hill were. I had to break it to him that it is just a residential area. Anyway I directed him to the famous 'blue door'. We have quite a few rich American celebrities who live round here. I agree that John 3:5 does not provide conclusive proof of the Catholic or traditional doctrine of baptismal regeneration. However, my belief is that the nascent Church held a body of scriptural interpretations: some doctrines are only in the scriptures in kernel form (such as the trinity, which took nearly 300 years to be understood and explicated yet is certainly in scripture) Furthermore, I don't ultimately limit Jesus' teachings to a collection of apostolic writings. Joh 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. I don't accept Scripture is either 'perspicious' nor that the sola scriptura principle is biblical. I believe scripture teaches the opposite: 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. I don't believe this view belittles Scripture in any way. I'm sure I read and love the Scriptures more than most. If any Christian could have sat down with the elderly Apostle John I'm sure he could have explained many passages of Scripture. Who would say to him Scripture is perspicious and we are quite capable of interpreting it, we don't need your input. The Catholic Church has a realistic claim that it was given and has directly passed on a body of interpretations down the centuries. Best Regards Dalcent |
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6 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | BradK | 135023 | ||
Hi Dalcent, Thank you for sharing your profile. I found it enlightening and interesting! I too have had my "spiritual journeying":-) Though we will inevitably disagree on certain matters, I think it safe to say that we can agree in the essentials of the faith! As long as we proclaim Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, we have much more to agree upon than not:-) That point has certainly been more clearly developed in me during my time on this Forum! I do appreciate the perspective you bring to the Forum and your assertiveness. It does challenge me in a positive way. Thanks again for your contributions. Speasking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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