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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134681 | ||
Doc, I'm also reading Fox's. Something caught my eye early on which puzzles me. Peter, fleeing Nero's persecution, meets Jesus at the gate of Rome: "...'Lord, whither dost Thou go?' To whom he answered and said , 'I am come again to be crucified." Peter is subsequently crucified opside-down because "he was (he said) unworthy to be crucified after the same form and manner as the Lord was." Foxe's account seems at odds with contemporary teaching on 2 points: 1) Peter is in Rome. 2) Christ is to be re-crucified. Not only does Foxe locate Peter in Rome, he's also at variance with contemporary teaching on the once-for-all sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. What do you make of this? Colin |
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2 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 134703 | ||
Hi, Colin... Foxe is quoting Hegesippus. Although we don't have a lot of Hegesippus' original works, we do have the following: "The brethren then, when the prison was opened, prayed Peter to go thence, and he would not, but at the last he being overcome by their prayers went away. And when he came to the gate, as, Leo witnesseth, which is called Sancta Maria ad passus, he met Jesu Christ coming against him, and Peter said to him: Lord, whither goest thou? And he said to him: I go to Rome for to be crucified again, and Peter demanded him: Lord, shalt thou be crucified again, And he said: Yea, and Peter said then: Lord, I shall return again then for to be crucified with thee. This said, our Lord ascended into heaven, Peter beholding it, which wept sore. And when Peter understood that our Lord had said to him of his passion, he returned, and when he came to his brethren, he told to them what our Lord had said." Now, anything that is extra-biblical should be taken with a grain of salt. That written, if we assume that Higesippus' tale is accurate -- and it cannot be verified nor do we have any other word than his -- look closely at the account. The vision of Christ did not say that Christ *needed* to be crucified a second time. The vision was not -- strictly speaking -- stating anything of a doctrinal nature. In fact, Peter understood it to mean that he needed to return to his jailers rather than flee from the persecution that he faced. As to whether Peter was ever actually in Rome or not, I cannot comment with any conviction. Frankly, I have not studied the question. Off the top of my head, I'd tend to take Hegesippus' word for it. After all, this story sounds "Peter-like." If you know of evidence to the contrary, I would be interested in hearing about it. In Him, Doc |
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3 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134709 | ||
Doc, I don't know of any evidence to the contrary, but it looks like the early reformers retained a lot of what they opposed, the sufficiency of Christ's once-for-all sacrifice, for example. It's apparent that both branches, Catholic and Protestant, have evolved more-or-less organically, though I have the impression that Protestantism, being younger, is still trying to assemble its wardrobe, so to speak, while Catholics, on the other hand, are wardrobe a-go-go. Colin |
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4 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 134720 | ||
Not that I'm one to overwork a metaphor... I'd say that most modern Protestants have misplaced their clothes... while their preachers and teachers tell them that they -- sans garb -- are at the height of sophistication and fashion! Meanwhile some, sensing their nakedness, would be happy to don the a-go-go outfit no matter what it fails to cover. But, as I said, I'm not one to overwork a metaphor. :-) |
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