Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Emmaus | 134612 | ||
Colin, "Ordinary means" means that is the way God has established as the ordinary means of recieving grace. God has boud grace and salvation to His sacraments, but He is not bound by them. God can save in extraordinary ways when He choses or the ordinary means is not possible,i.e. the thief on the cross and Cornelius and his household. In the later case God was making a point to Peter and the other Jews, kinda like hitting them in the head with a 2 x 4 to get their attention that His Kingdom was open to the Gentiles. Notice that once Baptism was open to the Gentiles, this order of occurence never happened again. The Catholic Church even teaches a "Baptism of desire" when one is unable to be Baptiszed sacramentally, but that is not the "ordinary means" of salvation. As is often the case in the Catholic position is both / and, while the Protestant position is either / or. Catholicism integrates, Protetantism separates. Catholics see faith working through love. Protestants see faith alone and love alone some place else. Think of it like two kids. One doesn't care if the food on the plate touches. The other would prefer no touching and really likes those segmented plates. Same food, different arrangement. Let the Spirit touch the flesh or the water or the oil or the bread and wine. It won't kill you. It will save you because Christ is the minister of the sacraments and in them we encounter Him. Ultimately Jesus The Sacrament, God working in and through matter (Jesus in the flesh) to accomplish our salvation. "Through Him, with Him and in Him all glory and honor is yours almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen." Emmaus |
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2 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134626 | ||
Emmaus, I see, Jesus is the Sacrament of God working in and through matter. Could you explain Jesus as a Sacramant? Colin |
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3 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Emmaus | 134627 | ||
Colin, By His Incarnation, death and resurrection, Jesus is both the Sign and the means of grace and salvation. One definition of sacrament is that it is a sign instituted by God to give grace. Emmaus |
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4 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134629 | ||
Emmaus, By "Jesus is both the sign and the means of grace and salvation", is this what Catholics mean by the sacraments conferring the "grace that they signify"? Is Christ at work in the material sacraments in the way He was at work in the material flesh? Colin |
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5 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Emmaus | 134640 | ||
Yes. | ||||||
6 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134644 | ||
Emmaus, I see. So just as Jesus was sacramentally present in material flesh, He is present in consecrated things -- bread, wine, water -- and is active within them and through them. I see better why Catholics read the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 literally; however, because Jesus also says "Do this in remembrance of Me..." at the last supper, is it also biblically possible that He meant us to understand the bread as symbolic of His flesh? Colin |
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7 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Emmaus | 134717 | ||
Colin, Not for me. What was everone so unpset about in John 6 if it was just symbolic speech and why didn't Jesus just clarify the matter if they were misunderstanding? It is more than a mere symbol and Jesus in the Bread of Life discourse never stopped those who were walking away because of His teaching on this matter by just saying, "Hey, don't get upset, you misunderstand, I am only speaking symbolically." Apparently from John 6:60, 64, 70-71 Judas was one of those who could not abide Jesus's teaching on the matter, but Judas unlike the others did not walk away just then. he waited until he could cash in by his betrayal. Emmaus |
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8 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 134754 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! There is another possibility as to why the crowd was upset with Jesus. John 6:42 specifically mentions that they were upset that He claimed to 'come down from Heaven'. They certainly could have been upset because of the implications of what He was claiming for Himself. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Emmaus | 134761 | ||
Tim, I belive that John 6:52 is the key verse in the whole passage. That was the final straw it seems. John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." John 6:52 "Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?" John 6:58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever." John 6:59 "These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. John 6:60 "Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" John 6:61 "But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?" John 6:66 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore." So the question still remains. How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Many still cannot near this statement, which Jesu did not retract nor explain away as mere symbolic speech, but which the Church unanimously undersdtood for 1500 years as Holy Communion and which the majority of Christians still understand in that way. Emmaus |
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