Results 1 - 11 of 11
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 134569 | ||
Jerome certainly believed in baptismal regeneration: he was a Catholic! 382 AD Jerome "[S]eeing that a man, baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, becomes a temple of the Lord, and that while the old abode is destroyed a new shrine is built for the Trinity (Dialogue Against the Luciferians 6). I'm sure you know that Irenaeus sat at the feet of Polycarp and Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John. What are people thinking interpreting 2,000 year old texts anew utterly removed from those who knew the Apostles? And most of the time, denying the plain sense of Scripture for allegories, spiritualizations and metaphors which support the traditions of their own groups. 120-205 AD IRENAEUS "This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith." (Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 345.) 120-205 AD IRENAEUS "As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, "Fragments From Lost Writings", no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574) 110-165 AD Justin Martyr The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus…. "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.) 217 AD Hippolytus "The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8). 75 AD The Letter of Barnabas "Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer. 22:13; Is. 16:1Letter of Barnabas 11:1) 80 AD Hermas "'I have heard, sir,' said I, 'from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'" (The Shepherd 4:3:1) THEODOTUS "Now, regeneration is by water and spirit, as was all creation: 'For the Spirit of God moved on the deep.' And for this reason the Savior was baptized, though not Himself needing to be so, in order that He might consecrate the whole water for those who were being regenerated. Thus it is not the body only, but the soul, that we cleanse." ("Excerpts of Theodotus," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 44) I've kept these quotes brief but suggest that to those who would dismiss the first centuries of the Christian era, try letting history judge you: not you judging history. Don't ask whether these great Christians (many who were martyrs)are in your Church; ask whether you are in theirs! God Bless |
||||||
2 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 134608 | ||
Very interesting, Dalcent. However, I am not disputing the doctrine nor it's historicity. We are discussing the interpretation of John 3:5. None of these quotes address or make mention of this verse. Thank you, however, for bringing these quotes to the fore. They are, as I said, very interesting. | ||||||
3 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 134698 | ||
Hi there, Quite a few of the quotes are variants of John 3:5, although I admit they were rather a lot to trawl through. One interesting point is that the quotations usually have BORN AGAIN of water and the Spirit. Which I think would be harder to dispute. This is a matter of textual criticism. My old Douay Rheims renders John 3:5 born-again, as it is translated from the Latin. Also these writers of antiquity all seem to follow that rendering. Think how early Irenaeus is. Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate from NT texts that are much older than we possess now so perhaps this rendering is right. The Codex Sinaiticus is from the end of the fourth century. Jerome may have been using texts hundreds of years old. Certainly we consider the Vulgate an important resource for that reason. Furthermore I still can't see why Act 10:47 doesn’t answer your question. Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? (If the verse only had ‘water’ and not later confirmation this was baptism why would you have to accept it was referring to baptism? It would be another John 3:5) Can any man forbid water... Can any man forbid baptism... ...that these should not be baptized He is using water as a synonym for baptism. Your brother in Christ Dalcent These 7 quotes definitely understand John 3:5 as water baptism: 190 AD Irenaeus of Lyons "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan' [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Fragment 34). 140-230 AD TERTULLIAN "The prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none' chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, 'Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" (On Baptism, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pg. 674-675) 150-200 AD CLEMENT For thus hath the true prophet testified to us with an oath: 'Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' (Clement, "Recognitions of Clement," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, pg. 155 200-258 AD CARTHAGE Nemesianus of Thubunae 'Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit." ("The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 566.) 200-258 AD CYPRIAN ...baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'" (Cyprian, "The Epistles of Cyprian," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pg. 384) 203 AD Tertullian "[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life'" (Baptism 12:1). (surely he is quoting from John 3:5). 240 AD Testimonies Concerning the Jews "That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: 'Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5] |
||||||
4 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 134718 | ||
Hi, Dalcent! Thank you for drawing our attention to these quotes. You're right! Those seven quotes do conclusively indicate that their author's understood the word water in John 3:5 to be Christian baptism. I do not mean to equivocate or quibble... However, what you have brought to our attention is that these men interpreted John 3:5 in this way; not *why* they interpreted it this way. The latter question is what would bear light on this issue. (Although it is very interesting that these men saw it this way. By the way, are all these men considered authoritative by the Church of Rome?) The reason that Acts 10:47 does not fit the prescribed parameters of the question is because it specifically mentions baptism. From my review of the word water in the NT, some other word always accompanies it when baptism is the intended meaning. Peter said, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" (NASB) But, if he had said, "Surely no one can refuse water for these who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" It would have been similar in structure and usage to the way the word was used in John 3:5. Nevertheless, Peter is talking about baptism *subsequent* to receiving the Holy Spirit. While Christ is talking about something that occurs *simultaneous* with receiving the Holy Spirit. I hope that I have clarified things rather than making them more obscure! In Him, Doc PS Wasn't Tertullian a Montanist, or am I mixing him up with someone else? |
||||||
5 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 134737 | ||
Tertullian became a Montanist later. It was after the year 206 that he joined the Montanist sect, and he seems to have definitively separated from the Church about 211 (Harnack) or 213 (Monceaux). After writing more virulently against the Church than even against heathen and persecutors, he separated from the Montanists and founded a sect of his own. The remnant of the Tertullianists was reconciled to the Church by St. Augustine. His orthodox writings are held in great esteem although I guess that because he left the Catholic Church that is why he never was honoured as a a saint. No Church father is considered authortive by the Church of Rome, only the bishops in ecumenical council. Nevertheless early patristic consensus is inportant in showing how the early Chistian writers understood scripture; there were no evangelicals! The events of Acts 10:47ff are entirely unique in that they divinely justified the acceptance of the Gentiles into the Church to Jewish Christians. As unique as the tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost. The thief on the cross is another unique circumstance. It is more important to establish the pattern for the 'normal Christian birth.' The Catholic Church only teaches that baptism is the normative pattern of regeneration, and that God is not limited in this respect. They have always taught the efficacy of the baptism of desire, and the baptism of blood as exceptional cases of regeneration. The events of Acts 10 were to prove to the Jewish Christians God accepted the Gentiles in a one off way. It is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit 'fell' on the listeners of Peter's sermon; there is no mention of any altar call or born-again prayer. Dalcent |
||||||
6 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 134825 | ||
Did that particular quote come before or after Tertullian lost his good standing with the church? So that account in Acts 10 is an exception to the norm. Ah. I see. Very enlightening. (By the way, I actully knew that Charles Finney was not alive in the third century. Honest I did!) |
||||||
7 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Dalcent | 134950 | ||
Dear Doc, Tertullian is just one of myriads of Church fathers saying the same thing so what does it matter? The events of Acts 10 provided a SIGN to the Church that the Gentiles could be included in the Christian fold. Why does such a sign have to constitute the normative doctrine of Christian initiation. Catholics teach the normative method of Christian initiation is faith AND baptism. They do not insist that one must be baptised. It beggars belief that over and over and over again new Christians are baptized as and when they become Christians, and yet a whole wing of the Christian Church insists that the 'bible-way' is to pray Jesus into your heart. They know full well this is not described in the Bible. I'm impressed you realise the first hundreds of years of the Christian faith wasn't even slightly akin to the evangelical Church. Many evangelicals name drop fathers such as Ireneaus, Origen and Athanasius as if these men weren't Catholics! Dalcent If only: Act 8:36 And as they were going along the road, and the eunuch said, "What prevents me from praying Jesus into my heart?" Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they prayed Jesus into their heart, both men and women. Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after praying Jesus into his heart he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed. Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be praying Jesus into your heart every one of you for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act 2:41 So those who received his word prayed Jesus into their heart, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 1Pe 3:21 Praying Jesus into your heart, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Gal 3:27 For as many of you as prayed Jesus into your hearts have put on Christ. 1Co 1:14 I thank God that I led none of you in the sinner's prayer except Crispus and Gaius, Act 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and pray the sinner's prayer and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were prayed the sinner's prayer of the Lord Jesus. Act 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and prayed Jesus into their hearts. Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he prayed the sinners prayer at once, he and all his family. Act 16:15 And after she asked Jesus into her heart, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us. Act 10:48 And he commanded them to pray the born-again prayer of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he led him in the sinner's prayer. |
||||||
8 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 134953 | ||
Greetings Dalcent! There has been much debate about whether or not baptism is 'necessary' for salvation. I am beginning to think that many of us may be using different meanins for 'necessary'. For instance, you wrote: "Catholics teach the normative method of Christian initiation is faith AND baptism. They do not insist that one must be baptised." No one, to the best of my knowledge, is arguing that baptism should not be a normative part of our Christian experience. We are certainly commanded to be baptized. However, when I use the term 'necessary', I mean something without which one cannot be saved. Thus, I reject that one must be baptized to be saved. But, I do not reject that we are commanded to be baptized. However, if something is 'necessary' (in the sense that I used it above) than there can be no exceptions. However, I would not agree with your characterization of prayer. Prayer is simply an expression of repentance and confession. Ps. 86:5 - "You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in love to all who call to you." Ps. 145:18 - "The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." Rom. 10:12 - "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" Joel 2:32 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls." Acts 2:21 - "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." These Scriptures make it clear that there is nothing wrong with crying out to God for salvation, and that God has promised to answer that call. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
9 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134954 | ||
Tim, "Prayer is simply an expression of repentance and confession." With reams written on the subject of prayer, is this what it all boils down to? Colin |
||||||
10 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 134960 | ||
Greetings Colin! I was speaking specifically of the prayer for salvation. So many seem to demean the so-called 'sinners prayer', but I have never understood how asking God for forgiveness is a bad thing! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
11 | Verses where water alone means baptism? | John 3:5 | flinkywood | 134961 | ||
Me neither, Tim. Colin |
||||||