Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25520 | ||
A number (but not all) of your questions are answered in my study at http://biblestudy.iwarp.com. Last I checked it ran over 70 pages so I'm not going to cut-and-paste it all here. Think about the use of "or"--it just doesn't make sense in the context of the whole. |
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2 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25582 | ||
Honestly dconklin... to me "or" makes more sense than "and". But I think I understand where you are coming from. Please tell me if I'm wrong. Do you understand that verse to be speaking of ONE thing, as opposed to multiple things? For instance if "and" is used, then a person could understand that verse to be saying "let no man judge you in [the singular event of] eating, drinking, a festival i.e. new moon, sabbath" because "and" could give one the idea that those things are all joined together into one event. Whereas "or" would separate them, and suggest that Paul was saying "let no one judge you in any one of these things". Is that why you think "and" makes more sense? |
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3 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25658 | ||
Very good! You are actually testing various interpretations! You suggested: "let no man judge you in [the singular event of] eating, drinking, a festival i.e. new moon, sabbath" The only problem here is that you dropped out two items: one, the fitrst "eta" should be translated as "either" and secondly, the the meaning of the Greek "en merei". It means "in part of" as I point out in my study. If I were to re-translate/interpret the Greek of Col.2:16-17 into today's English and take into account all of the available evidence I'd suggest this: "Let no man therefore judge you in your feasting and fasting on the feast days, or the new moons, or the ceremonial sabbath days: 17 These (i.e., the feasting and fasting) are a shadow of things to come; rather let the Church decide such matters." |
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4 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | Morant61 | 25685 | ||
Greetings Djconklin! I have two questions regarding your proposed translation. 1) In Col. 2:17, why do you limit the reference of the relative pronoun to only eating and drinking (or in your translation - feasting and fasting)? The best option would seem to be that it refers to all the items listed. In fact, if one were to limit the scope, the best case would be made for limiting it to the sabbath days, since it is the only noun which agrees with the pronoun in both number and gender. If Paul intended for "these" to refer to only the 'eating' and 'drinking', he could have used the femine plural form of the pronoun. 2) I understand that the last clause of Col. 2:17 has no verb, but why do you connect the last clause of Col. 2:17 with the first clause of Col. 2:16, supplying the verb 'judge' and making the body of Christ a reference to the church? It seems that contextually the best choice would be to take it as a contrast with the reality and the shadow, since these are most closely connected. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25689 | ||
1) This question is answered at http://biblestudy.iwarp.com/colossians/217b.html 2) This question is answered at http://biblestudy.iwarp.com/colossians/217d.html |
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6 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | Morant61 | 25694 | ||
Greetings Djconklin! Concerning your answers: "1) This question is answered at http://biblestudy.iwarp.com/colossians/217b.html" I really didn't find an answer in this page. I found five different options. My specific question is how can a neuter plural relative pronoun refer only to the first two elements of a list, when those first two elements are feminine plural nouns? The best options seem to be that: a) "These" refers to all five elements and is neuter because the five nouns are a combination of four feminine nouns and one neuter noun. b) Or, "these" refers to sabbaths, since "sabbaths" agrees with "these" in gender and number. "2) This question is answered at http://biblestudy.iwarp.com/colossians/217d.html" This answer, as is each option, based on assumption. Unfortuntately, the text doesn't supply any verb in the last clause of Col. 2:17. However, my preference would be that it is associated with the first clause of Col. 2:17. If we only had verse 17 on hand, it would make perfect sense to translate it as: "These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the body (is) of Christ." This would see 'body' as having a meaning of substance or reality. Admitedly, either choice has to assume something. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25701 | ||
Tim, Thanks for the quick response! Thank you also for actually looking at the pages to which I referred you to. You'd be amazed at the sheer number of people who wish to argue but never look at the evidence. On number one you seem to making more distinctions than are warranted. Paul uses the plural simply because he is referring to more than one thing. Secondly, the days that are mentioned in vs. 16 can be thought of as a sub-clause which he could have left out and his original audience would have known what he was talking about. Thirdly, it causes more problems than it is worth to assume that Paul was only referring to "sabbatwn": is he talking about the seventh-day Sabbath? If so, where in the OT is it given as a symbol of something to come? If it is the ceremonial sabbaths then what does that say about the other two (feasts and new moons)? The answer to number two is not based on assumptions; Troy Martin's study pays attention to the grammatical construction of the passage. Assumptions do come into play when it is assumed that Paul is playing off "shadow" with "body". |
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8 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | Morant61 | 25705 | ||
Greetings Djconklin! I have to admit, I was tempted not to read the pages! :-) 1) Greek pronouns usually agree with their antecedents in both gender and number. My point is simply this, including your translation, there appear to be three options concerning the antecedents of "these." a) All of the nouns listed in v. 16. b) Only "sabbaths". c) Only "eating" and "drinking". Of the three, I think a) is the best choice. b) is possible grammatically. But, c) has no grammatical support at all. I would disagree that the last three nouns are a sub-clause. 2) Again, I would disagree. Each option includes assumptions simply because there is no verb in the last clause of v. 17. I assume that the last clause is a contrast with the clause immediately preceding it. Thus, I would translate it as, "These are a shadow of what is to come, but the reality is Christ." Your position assumes that "but the body of Christ" refers all the way back to the beginning of verse 16 and thus you translate it, "But (let) the body of Christ (judge or decide)." Either option mandates an assumption since there is no verb! Grammatically, I think the best option is that 'de' contrast the body with the shadow. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | djconklin | 25708 | ||
"I would disagree that the last three nouns are a sub-clause." This is because of the meaning of "e en merei"; check it out: http://biblestudy.iwarp.com/colossians/216b.html --- "Grammatically, I think the best option is that 'de' contrast the body with the shadow." Then write it up and submit it to Journal of Biblical Literature and see what they say when they review it. Here's what Troy Martin said: "The construction of [me oun tis umas krinetow ... to de soma tou kristou] is an antithesis. The negative member is stated first; the contrasting positive member introduced by an adversative conjunction occurs second. ... The verb [krineto] determines the action that is forbidden by the first member and then enjoined by the second member of this antithesis. ... The prohibition in the first clause of the antithesis in Col 2:16 indicates that the nuance of [krineto] is negative. ... However, the action enjoined by the second clause requires a positive nuance. ... An example of precisely this combination of nuances occurs in the antithesis in Rom 14:13 ...." [ "But Let Everyone Discern the Body of Christ (Colossians 2:17)," Journal of Biblical Literature 114/2 (1995): 252-3] |
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