Results 1 - 4 of 4
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Two Natures or One? | Rom 6:6 | Morant61 | 209882 | ||
Greetings All! Two Natures? There are three passages, all by Paul, that use the phrase 'old man': Rom. 6:6, Col. 3:9, and Eph. 4:2. Rom. 6:6 - “knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;” Col. 3:9 - “Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,” Eph. 4:22 - “that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,” What happens to the 'old man' in a believer? Anthony Hoekema writes (in Five Views of Sanctification by Zondervan Publishing House, 1987): “On the question of the relation between these two selves, Reformed theologians differ. Most of them, particularly those who taught and wrote some years ago, hold that the old self and the new self are distinguishable aspects of the believer. Before conversion believers has an old self; at the time of conversion, however, they put on the new self – but without totally losing the old self. The Christian, on this view, is understood to be partly a new self and partly an old self – something like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. At times the old self is in control, but at other times the new self is in the saddle; the struggle of life, according to this view, is the struggle between these aspects of the believer's being.” (pg. 78). Does Scripture support the notion that believer's have two natures at the same time? To answer this question, let us consider several points: What is the 'old man'?, and what does Scripture says about the 'old man'? 1) What is the old man? There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that the 'old man' is our sin nature. Again, Hoekema writes: “What does Paul mean here by the 'old self'? Murray suggests that this expression designates 'the person in his unity as dominated by the flesh and sin.' In other words, Paul is here talking about a totality: the total person enslaved by sin,' what we all are by nature. That 'person enslaved by sin,' his saying, was crucified with Christ. When Christ died on the cross, He dealt a deathblow to the old self we once were. Given the meaning of 'crucified,' Romans 6:6 states with unmistakable clarity that we are no longer the old selves we once were.” (pg. 79). This is an important point. There is nothing to indicate in any of the three verses dealing with the 'old man' that we, as Christians, are both 'old man' and 'new man' at the same time. In the first place, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ. The result of crucifixion is death. Yet, according to the traditional reformed view, the 'old nature' is still alive and kicking. Here is how one proponent (Herman Bavanick) of this view describes the relationship between the 'old man' and the 'new man' (as quoted by Hoekema): “The struggle (in the Christian life)...is between the inner man of the heart, which has been created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, and the old man who, though driven out of the center, still wants to maintain his existence, and who fights all the more fiercely the more territory he loses...This is the struggle between two people in the same person...In every deliberation and deed of the believer, therefore, good and evil are as it were mingled together;...in all his thoughts and actions something of the old and something of the new man is present.” (pg. 78). Notice how far short this description falls from what Scripture actually says. Scripture doesn't say that the 'old man' has been 'driven out of the center', or that the 'old man' is fighting fiercely as he loses more territory. It says that he has been crucified. I will address the second question in my next post! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
2 | Two Natures or One? | Rom 6:6 | Morant61 | 209883 | ||
Part II 2) What does Scripture say about the 'old man'? As there are only three verses which mention the 'old man', it is fairly simple to find out what Scripture says about him. First of all, Rom. 6:6 tells us that the 'old man' has been crucified with Christ; hence, he is dead. He is not on life support, fighting to maintain control. He is dead. Secondly, Col. 3:9 tells us that believers have 'put him off'. The verb used describes the past action of taking off the old man like a set of dirty clothes. What does this mean for us? It means that we do not have two competing natures. We are literally new creations. 2 Cor. 5:17 - “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” We are not individuals who 'will' be made new. We have been made new. Does this mean that a Christian can no longer sin? No! I will try to post a study later on Paul's use of the word 'sarx' or 'flesh'. No where does Scripture tell us that it is impossible for us to sin, because we can still choose to obey the 'sarx'. However, at the same time, no where does Scripture tell us that we have two natures competing against one another. This is an important concept to grasp as we try to understand the relationship between sin and a believer. Some would have us to believe that the best one can hope for in this life is to give in to the old man less and give in to the new man more. But, this falls far short of the decisive and victorious comments of Scripture regarding sin. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
3 | Two Natures or One? | Rom 6:6 | stjohn | 209886 | ||
Two questions, Tim. Do you, "LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH."? and do you, "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF"? Don't bother to answer, please, I know I don't, and I know you don't. Now, whatever you want to call it, either it be the old man, or wretched man, or or double nature, or Jekyll-Hyde, or wether you don't choose to name it at all; which seems to be your preference. We have it, and we are stuck with it, and as long as we are wearing this old tent, this skin, this flesh; we will continue to struggle, internally, with this problem. NO one is saying we are not new creatures, NO one is saying that the old man has not been crucified, etc; but facts are facts, and we all know, as honest Christians that, we sometimes struggle with sin, and you at least have admitted to that. (I think?)? So, in summery: Thank you Tim, but I for one am not looking forward to more on this subject. It has been discussed from both sides now, at great length, from many different angels, and I can see plainly you are not budging, nor are those, myself included, who oppose your view. I also believe very strongly at this point, if I were to refute your view, once again; as I and others have already done; I fear we would be crossing the line, pushing our doctrine, and only doing that which is a violation of the TOU. (Terms Of Use) So, out of respect for this, and all who may be reading along, let us cease striving with one-another, at least for a while, okay Tim? :-) I think at this point; any way you slice it, we are at a crossroads where we are going nowhere fast. If you don't mind Tim, my friend, I'd really appreciate it if we put this one to bed. So, In plain english, strait talk, Tim, please stop. John |
||||||
4 | Two Natures or One? | Rom 6:6 | Morant61 | 209890 | ||
Greetings John! My friend, I am simply posting study notes on a topic that I have been studying. These posts are not addressed to anyone in particular. If anyone does not want to discuss these posts, then please feel free not to do so. If anyone would like to agree or disagree, then please feel free to do (on the basis of Scripture). Since you have expressed a desire not to participate in this study, I will not bother responding to your questions. But, I will note that I have not violated the Terms of use by doing a study on a set of verses. The interpretations I have reached are ones shared by numerous individuals from a wide range of theological systems of thought. In fact, the gentleman who actually use the Jekyll-Hyde illustration is a reformed writer. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||