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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Two Natures or One? | Rom 6:6 | DocTrinsograce | 210146 | ||
Dear Tim, A speed reader, too? I wish I had a tenth of your many talents, sir. The late Mortimer Adler wrote, "Some things should be read quickly and effortlessly; and some should be read slowly and even laboriously. The sign of intelligence in reading is the ability to read different things differently according to their merit. In the case of good books, the point is not to see how many of them you can get through, but rather, how many can get through you -- how many you can make your own." I've written quite a bit on sanctification in the forum. But I don't know that I'm up to the task of sufficiently squishing all that can be said of the topic into such narrow confines. If these perspicuous theologians have faithfully rendered a complete treatment of sanctification (relating to its description in terms of the believer's nature), then my own powers to word-smith would need to be much greater -- assuming that an adequate job of pre-masticating (or narrowing) the doctrine were possible. Precious little chance of all that, I do not doubt! Even the Holy Spirit deemed that this discussion needs more than just Romans 6:6! Seems to me, therefore, that we should quote these fellows just one more time: "...as long as the Christian is in this life he must continue to fight against sin. ...the Christian's self-image is to be a positive one: the believer is to look upon himself as someone who is in Christ and in the Spirit, and is no longer in the flesh. The fact that he may sometimes give way to the flesh does not mean that he must modify his self-image to leave room for such defections." "This [definitive sanctification] is not to deny that there continue to be struggle and tension in the Christian life. But the unique message of the New Testament is this: For those who are in Christ, and therefore in the Spirit, the battle against sin is to be fought in an atmosphere of victory, not defeat." --Anthony Hoekema "When we speak of sanctification we generally think of it as that process by which the believer is gradually transformed in heart, mind, will, and conduct and conformed more and more to the will of God and to the image of Christ until at death the disembodied spirit is made perfect in holiness and at the resurrection his body likewise will be conformed to the likeness of the body of Christ’s glory. "It is necessary to stress both aspects, the past historical and the experiential in their distinctness, on the one hand, and in their inter-dependence, on the other. The experiential must not be allowed to obscure the once-for-all historical, nor the once-for-all historical so to overshadow our thinking that we fail to give proper emphasis to the way in which its meaning and efficacy come to realization in the practical life of the believer. In other words, due emphasis must fall upon the objective and subjective in our dying and rising again with Christ in his death to sin and living again to God. It is only in this way that we can avoid the tendency to deny the vicarious significance of that which Christ wrought once for all in the realm of history as concrete and real as any other historical event." --John Murray These theologians, along with the majority of Reformed theologians, aren't going to help build a case for entire sanctification (sinless perfectionism). Perhaps more sympathetic authorities might be found closer to home; e.g., Bresee, Grider, or Pinnock. In Him, Doc |
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2 | Two Natures or One? | Rom 6:6 | Morant61 | 210154 | ||
Greetings Doc! Now I see the problem! You are confusing the 'flesh' and the 'old man'. These are two different topics. I never made the claim that these two gentleman believed in entire sanctification. But, as I have been studying this issue, one of the foundation blocks to the study concerns the 'old man' or the 'old nature'. As you pointed out a couple of posts ago, one's view of man is important to this whole topic. In the same way, one's view of the 'old man' is equally important to an understanding of sanctification. Both of these gentleman reject the dual nature view of a believer in Christ. Which is one of the reasons why Hoekema disagrees that the 'wretched man' describes a Christian. But, Biblically, the 'old man' is distinct from the 'sarx'. We were 'old men', but now we are 'new men' in Christ. However, the 'sarx' can still influence us as believers. However, we are no longer controlled by it, but by the Spirit, if we are in Christ. I'm glad that you made your point clear. I was really beginning to wonder why you couldn't seem to understand their quotes and seemed to think that I was misunderstanding or misusing their quotes. So, to be clear - I was simply using their quotes to demonstrate that believers do not have two natures at the same time. As I get time, I will deal more with the issue of the 'sarx'. I would note that I agree with most of what Hoekema says on this topic, but I don't think that he quite goes far enough. He accepts that we only have one nature in Christ. He accepts that we are no longer slaves to sin. He accepts that there is a note of victory in Rom. 6-8, but then he ends up talking as though the struggle is too much. It seems to me that he falls short of the full implications of his teaching on this topic. Well, I have to go to work now! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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