Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | A Wonderful Plan? How do you know? | Rom 1:18 | Lionstrong | 20259 | ||
In other words how can my Arminian brother tell an unbeliever that God loves him and has a wonderful plan for his life? Does he know what plans God has for his life? And if the Almighty Soveriegn God has plans, who can change them? Can the Almighty's plans be frustrated by a mere man? Is 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" Peace, Lionstrong |
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2 | A Wonderful Plan? How do you know? | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20314 | ||
First, the verse you throw out—and probably most that you use to backup that God as micro-managed the universe—refers to a nation not to a particular individual. Isa 14:21-32 This passage reverts more particularly to the fall of historical Babylon in 539, and the permanent extinction of her power and posterity. As a confirmation beforehand of this promise concerning Babylon, the Lord foretold the more immediate disaster to the armies of Assyria (the suzerain of Babylon at the time) in Palestine (v. 25), which took place upon Sennacherib's invasion of 701 B.C. All these disasters to neighboring nations would demonstrate the irresistible power of the one true God, the God of Israel (vv. 24,27). (from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press) God can have evil/good plans in store for a nation and bless individuals within that nation He is judging. Look at Jeremiah’s life. He was mightily used of God (Great plan for his life), yet suffered the fate of exile with his brethren, Israel. Second, if the Gospel is for all people—I am one that believes it is—than God does have a wonderful plan for those who choose to bow their knee to the Lordship of Christ! That plan (pre-determined destination in life Eph 1) is ultimately the changing of that individual into the likeness of Jesus Christ. What better plan can be promised to an individual? So, yes, I can with full assurance tell someone on the street that “God does have a wonderful plan for their life.” |
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3 | A Wonderful Plan? How do you know? | Rom 1:18 | Lionstrong | 20447 | ||
Matt 10:29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. ......... Luke 12:6 "Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God. ........... Luke 12:7 "Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. ............ Micro-manage? You hide your unbelief in the Sovereignty of God with words of negative connotation, Brother Schwartz? I prefer to think of it as the Sovereign providence of an almighty God demonstrating intense personal interest in every detail of his wonderful creation, even down to the number of hairs on your blessed head. .............. Is 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" ............... A nation, not an individual? So what are you saying, Schwartz, my friend? A nation can’t frustrate God’s plan, but a single man can? ................ Peace, Lionstrong |
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4 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20483 | ||
I am just answering your question, "How can I say to a person that God has a wonderful plan for their life?" It is simple...If they bow their knee to the Lordship of Christ, God will unfold a wonderful plan for their life--Salvation! I agree with every passage you qouted, but yet none of the above passages prove the micr-management of God's creation. Lets look at each of them in context. Matt 10:29...Sure God knows when 2 sparrows are sold for a cent, but that doesn't mean God decreed the selling of those sparrows from the beginning of eternity or controlled/bartered the price of them. This whole passage, in context, is Jesus instructing us that God knows what we are going through--he is not ambivous to our troubles. Luke 12:6,7 Same point as above different book. God cares for his children and is worried about their welfare--John Calvin would say that this passage is "Anthropormorphic". This is a passage of how God cares for his children! This does not mean that God has pre-determined the catastrophes that have fallen upon man from the beginning of time! That we are acting out the great cosmic script created from the beginning of eternity. As far as your O.T. reference goes, Sure, if a nation willingly chooses to reject God's plan, in the O.T. judgement will follow! Look at the prophetic passages Jeremiah, Hosea, Jonah etc., the sole responsibility of judgemnt and judgement sustained is placed on the offenders not some eternal script the nationis acting out hiding under the mis-understood doctrine of Soveriegnty (God did not pre determine that Israel would sin and be dispersed in 7xx bc. They of their own free will chose to reject God, therefore God acted upon what he told them would happent in Dt. 28 and 29). The passages you used above have nothing to do with soverignty as you understand it. It has everything to do with God's knowledge--and I will dare to say affection--for his children. It does not mean he will magically remove us from the situation and get us out of the probelm--although he has done that--but it does mean that he will be there with us emphathizing with us through the problems we face in life. Finally, I would agree with you that God can have a specific plan for a particular individual--Judas Iscariot comes to mind. But that does not mean that God dictated every event of Judas' life and neither does he dictate every event of our life. I know poeple who have felt that God had called them to the mission field. I believe that is a divine plan from God. However, God has not dictated how they perform ministry in that Country. I don't think in God's cosmic script in the sky created before time that he said "on Dec 24, 1999 they are going to do this skit and...Yeah! lets only have 2 families show up. That should teach them a valuable lesson on humilty." End scene 54 act 2. |
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5 | response | Rom 1:18 | Norrie | 20514 | ||
I bet you hit question instead of note again. :) I think you're right in what your saying. It's like my pastor was saying is that God has a good plan for our life, we just choose not to follow it. Then we can repent then God will have plan B, C, D, etc. as many as needed to get us back on track, even if we did mess up the original plan. :) Look at all our lives, I'm sure there's not one of us that haven't made mistakes we wished we hadn't of made, said, if only I did that instead. But God continues blessing us and we mess up, we can't undo the mistake, but He will put us on a new path and He'll keep on doing it no matter how many times we mess up. Even Judas Iscariot could have been forgiven if he repented. |
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6 | response | Rom 1:18 | Reformer Joe | 20524 | ||
Norrie: With all due respect, where is the Scriptural support for this "Plans B, C, D, etc."? I know that it is a commonly held notion, but I am unable to find anything in the Word which reinforces this. On the contrary, I read verses like this: "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'" --Isaiah 46:9-10 "The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps." --Proverbs 16:9 "Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand." --Proverbs 19:21 "The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples." --Psalm 33:10 All of our actions are part of God's sovereign plan. To say that God has a multitude of plans would mean that (a) God does not know what we will do, and that he needs "backup plans" to compenstate for everything that we may do, and (b) God responds to us, meaning that we are largely the ones who determine the future, and not God. Neither is a Biblical statement. It is true that if we repent, God will be reconciled with us and give us new life and purpose (new purpose from our perspective, anyway). However, our omniscient and sovereign God has included the repentance of every individual who will repent in the ONLY plan that he has for human history. --Joe! |
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7 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20552 | ||
c) In God's soveriegn plan, he has made us truly free to make the choices we will to make. God already knows what choices we will make--because he is omnisceint--but that does not mean he has scripted the choices we will make. Therefore, practically, there will be a choice a) and b) and God leaves it up to us to fulfill that choice (Look at Dt 28-29. God does give them two broad choices:life and death). Within those two broad categories can be many ways in which we live those two choices in our life--a myriad of possible options for us to choose from. God just happens to know which choices we will make therefore, nothing will take Him by suprise. Still not completly satisfied with that defintion which I am paraphrasing form Geisler's book Chosen but Free. This all boils down to the typical armenianist calvanist debate--Does God know because he has pre-orchestrated everything or does he know based off of his omniscience. I have read many different books on this subject from a Calvanistic perspective--can't find a modern armenianist who has published a book on this. I don't know about you but Armenius' work and Calvins' work has put me to sleep :-) on many different occasions-- I admit there are passages that are difficult to work into my position, but at least I admit that! The only Calvanist I have ever read that admits what I admit is Geisler in his book Chosen but Free. He admits that "my passages" that I use to back up my opinion make it very difficult for his position as well! That is something I did not find in books published by Charles Ryrie, Wayne Gruden, Zane Hodges on this subject. By the way, Joe, do you know of a book published by a person from an Armenianist perspective that hasn't been dead for 300 plus years? I must admit that I don't own one book on this subject, or commentary on these passages, by an Aremenianist. :-) Funny , Huh! I enjoy the dialoge with you and lionstrong. I am reminded of the passage, "Iron sharpens Iron" and feel you have def., through many posts, given me something to think about. |
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8 | response | Rom 1:18 | Reformer Joe | 20553 | ||
While I respect greatly the work that Geisler has done in apologetics, his book Chosen But Free is a complete disaster in my opinion. He redefines the Calvinist position as held today as "extreme Calvinism" and his position as "moderate Calvinism." His moderate Calvinism, in most respects is nothing but Arminian thought under a different name. I was also horrified to see that he takes sentences and short passages of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and completely rips them out of their larger context in order to convince his reader that Calvin really agrees with *him* and not those cursed "extreme Calvinists" (that's 5-point Calvinists to the rest of the free world). Now that you have read "Chosen But Free," I would heartily recommend the rebuttal written by James R. White, entitled "The Potter's Freedom." He methodically addresses point-by-point the errors in Geisler's thinking, and more thoroughly defends true [extreme] Calvinism. If nothing else, it will be a counterpoint to what is stated in Chosen But Free. I also have noticed the lack of scholarly works written by Arminian authors in the "not a seminary textbook" category (perhaps Tim could point some out). One of the things that first caught my attention regarding Reformed theology was the scholarship. Noll's _The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_, Marsden's _The Outrageous Idea of Christian Scholarship_, White's _The Forgotten Trinity_, Wells' _No Place for Truth_ and _God in the Wasteland_ were books that pointed out and addressed from a thoroughly Biblical perspective the dearth of thinking Christianity in our age. While none of these books are distinctively Reformed (i.e. I think many Arminians would agree with what is found in these works), I noticed that all of these authors shared a Reformed theological training and perspective. And so began my closer investigation into the theology of the Reformation. --Joe! |
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9 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20563 | ||
Thanks for your perspective on Geisler's book. I, too, felt that Geisler was trying to shape reforemed theology in the image of armenian. Why? I think we might disagree on this, I think Geisler (who is an intellectual) like myself (up for extreme debate on weather I am one) have seen the lack of evidence and the proof text offered by Calvanist to justify their belief in sovereignty and free will debate. I don't pretend to have all the answers on this subject in my back pocket, but was pleased to see Geisler was admitting that he too felt the same way! He pointed out and made an attempt to reconcile some major contradictions in reformed thought. (which I feel was heavily influenced by platonic philosophy not the scriptures.) I will def. check out the book you have recommended after I finally read a book published by an Armenianist author on this issue. I feel 5-0 is pretty lopsided affair and if I am not convinced yet I am not sure I will ever swing over to a reformed approach on this issue. Second comment about scholarship: When you have authors writing about the "lack of scholarship" in the Christian community I have to wonder what their motives are. Are they considering someone to not be a scholar because they don't agree with them on certain issues? Another words the , "If you were a real scholar, you would naturally come to the same conclusions I have concerning God" type books. If so they are just arrogant and not scholars. If not, I might be interested in looking at their books. I too see a lot of nonsense preached from the T.V and pulpits, but don't even attempt to lump them in as people who are even trying to be "scholars" of the Christian faith. In fact they would probably be the first to admit that they are not scholars. In some sense I think the church has too many "scholars" and not enough people actually "doing" the work of the ministry. It seems like all people want to do is debate about what Christianiy is and never practice it ( I don't mind the debate part as long as the other half is equally in place). I asked my pastor recently why he spent 8 years in college to study the scriptures and how to effectively do ministry and he hides in the church 7 days a week and never does what Paul and the other apostles did--witness in the public arenas...interact and challenge the presuppositions of the world today? What are they teaching in those seminaries about ministry? I just don't see the bang for the buck from people I know who have attended. Enough ranting. If you have been to seminary, I would love to know why people that leave are so ineffective in ministry (That might be too general of a statment). They wax eloqount in philosophy and Theology but never seem to get out in the public arena and challenge others. Most of them hide in the churches and preach where it is safe--another words they "Preach to the choir". Why are our best trained servants in the church never put into action? Why do I, someone who has no seminary training, placed on the front lines of evangelism when there is someone in the church that is much better able to answer the criticism that people have to Christianity--the seminary trained pastor? |
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10 | response | Rom 1:18 | Morant61 | 20569 | ||
Counterview.................................... Greetings Schwartzkm! Concerning your perspective on the church and seminary, I don't think the problem is seminary. The problem (in my opinion) is that the Church has developed a fortress mentality over the years. Pastors and laypeople alike (in general) open the doors and expect unbelievers to come to them. While I was pastoring, I constantly tried to get the Church out of the building. But, it was a constant struggle. Currently, I am working with small groups, which I think is a wonderful way to meet the world where they are. Now, maybe colleges and seminaries need to do a better job at articulating some stratigies for reaching out, but their primary job is to equip people. Those who have been equipped then have the responsiblity to use that training. In fairness to your pastor (though I don't know him), pastoring is more than just evangelism. It is probably harder for a pastor to evangelize than almost anyone else. People just aren't themselves around you when they find out you are a pastor and they don't really hear what you have to say because you get paid to say it. So, while I believe pastors must be examples and actively engaged in evangelism, their primary responsibility is to equip the saints for ministry. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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11 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 20572 | ||
I love my pastor and since we are so close I can say things to him that I would never say to other people. In the broader context, we were talking about building a more effective church. I pointed out after the comment that he plays the key road to spear-head any action to lead the church from a "inside-only" to an "outward-thinking" church. You do have a point on him being paid therefore, he is looked at as being biased in his position. I am just frustrated everytime I drive by a packed Mormon church and ask the question, why? And when I meet their Bishop, Bruce, he is actively involved in soul-winning (I am not sure that would be a proper term.) and our pastors think they have done their job after they finish up the closing poem to their sermon. |
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12 | response | Rom 1:18 | Morant61 | 20584 | ||
Comments..................................... Greetings Schwartzkm! I think the advantage cults have is that they preach what people want to hear. For instance, Mormonism stresses morality quite a bit, but in the end, they believe that you can earn salvation. People don't mind a religion that basically depends upon works. Keep up the focus on getting out of the church building though! We definitely need it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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