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NASB | Romans 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Romans 1:18 ¶ For [God does not overlook sin and] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in their wickedness suppress and stifle the truth, |
Subject: response |
Bible Note: ”1. God can do what He wants according to his own unchangeable nature. The question isn't "what can God do?," but rather "what HAS he done?" “ Joe, he did create a world full of beings that are able to make free choices. When I say free, I do not mean that we make choices in a vacuum. A casual read through the O.T and N.T. reveals that men, women, and nations were faced with REAL choices. The pre-exilic prophets clearly paint a picture of Israel at the crossroads: Serve God or Reject God. Their future was determined by their actions not what God had determined they would do before time began. Why would God present them with a choice if He had already determined the choice they would make? ”2. Please go back and re-read my previous post beginning with: "One last thing: you seem to be under the common misunderstanding that Calvinists believe that the sovereignty of God means that man does not make his own decisions." I have never stated than man is not free at all to make choices. I have said that man is not ultimately free, because he is bound by his nature and by circumstance. Within those two bounds we have complete freedom. Let me give you a concrete example. Let's say in my free will I purpose in my heart to invade Libya and rename it Joeland. I have the will to do that, but I think we would agree that I am not in a situation to carry out my will, because God has not allowed me to be in a position of enough means and power to do so. The unregenerate likewise are limited by something else: the depravity of their nature. They have a range of choices that they can make in life, but they will not ever will to do anything that honors God. Paul declares that the unsaved are unable to please God at all because they are completely enslaved to their sinful nature. This does not mean that they want to do what is right but can't, but rather that they don't WANT to do what is right in the first place, or at least not from the right motives. “ Not much to work with in your scenario because it is very unrealistic. I do, however, understand where you are heading and still disagree with Reformed Theologians on this issue. First, let me point out something we can both agree on: No choice is made in a vacuum. We all have external influences that will affect our choices; therefore some philosophers have come to the conclusion that no one is free. All freedom is just an illusion because every choice we make is predetermined by how we were raised, the country we grew up in, what side of the tracks we were born on etc. I would say on some level we never completely make a free choice. Two, In order for God to determine everything that happened in the past and everything that will happen in the future, God will have to place barriers before individuals to accomplish his will. If Sally was presented the option of choosing X or Y but God determined that Sally would choose Y God would have to place a barrier in front of choice X. Another words, God is going to have to make choice Y more attractive than Choice X. Or God is going to have to take choice X completely out of Sally’s equation—Kind of like taking over JoeLand. You really had no choice before you. When God does that to Sally, we go back to the illusion of freedom concept. Sally thinks she is making her own choices, but something more than just external influences (her social standing, the side of the tracks she was born on etc.) has already made her decision for her—God. This would take the Nihilist concept of no freedom to the next higher level. We not only combat our environment, but we also have to contend with what God has already determined would happen. So, I still don’t feel I do not understand Reformed Theology and feel you have presented it clearly but like all other presenters. I just don’t buy into it. |