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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | response | Rom 1:18 | Reformer Joe | 20681 | ||
Why do you feel you have the liberty to rearrange the order Paul set for his "golden chain of redemption"? Those he FOREKNEW, he PREDESTINED, he CALLED, JUSTIFIED, GLORIFIED. All of these are describing the same group of people. Who is the subject of all of these verbs? Who is the object? Again, the verse clearly indicates that God did not foreknow events, but rather PEOPLE. You write: "1. What is the Biblical basis for your belief here?" Aside from the other verses I quoted? Romans 9:18-24; Ephesians 1:4,11; Ephesians 2:3; John 6:37-40,44,65; 1 Peter 1:3-5 (for starters)...let me know if you need more. I am not "running wild" with one word in one verse. It is a clear doctrine that screams its truth from both the Old and New Testaments. There is scarcely a chapter in Scripture which does not declare that the whole ball game is God's and that He will do what He will do, regardless of man's own agenda. "God is sovereign Joe. If God is all powerful, can't he create a world in which his creation is really free to make choices? Yes. And he did." 1. God can do what He wants according to his own unchangeable nature. The question isn't "what can God do?," but rather "what HAS he done?" 2. Please go back and re-read my previous post beginning with: "One last thing: you seem to be under the common misunderstanding that Calvinists believe that the sovereignty of God means that man does not make his own decisions." I have never stated than man is not free at all to make choices. I have said that man is not ultimately free, because he is bound by his nature and by circumstance. Within those two bounds we have complete freedom. Let me give you a concrete example. Let's say in my free will I purpose in my heart to invade Libya and rename it Joeland. I have the will to do that, but I think we would agree that I am not in a situation to carry out my will, because God has not allowed me to be in a position of enough means and power to do so. The unregenerate likewise are limited by something else: the depravity of their nature. They have a range of choices that they can make in life, but they will not ever will to do anything that honors God. Paul declares that the unsaved are unable to please God at all because they are completely enslaved to their sinful nature. This does not mean that they want to do what is right but can't, but rather that they don't WANT to do what is right in the first place, or at least not from the right motives. I am sorry if your misunderstanding comes from poor explanation of Reformed theology. Pick up James White's book that I recommended and read it without any preconceptions. It really does a very good job of defending historic Reformed thinking. --Joe! |
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2 | response | Rom 1:18 | userdoe220 | 21844 | ||
“You write: "1. What is the Biblical basis for your belief here?" Aside from the other verses I quoted…” There are other ways you can approach each verse you quoted in prior posts that does justice to both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man—God knows the choices we will make because of His foreknowledge not because He has determined EVERY event that happens. A number of verses (Gen, Jer, IS. verses in particular) you quoted in past posts deal with God sending other nations to bring about judgment on Israel for willingly choosing to disobey God (I am sure we can both agree on this statement). It is a far jump, in my mind, to take those verses and say because God wanted a specific event to happen God has determined ALL events that happen both past and present. Romans 9:18-24 These passages again deal with the Israel question: What is God’s plan for Israel after the cross (Wow! That question is almost as hot as the calvanist arminianist debate.) How does Israel fit into this new economy? If you look at the passages quoted from Jeremiah that Paul uses, you will see that Israel was placed in their predicament as an act of their own free will! The predetermined plan God was fulfilling was based on Israel’s choice not something determined by God before the foundation of the Earth. If Israel makes the correct choice, the potter, God, will make them into a vessel of honor. If Israel makes the wrong choice, the potter, God, will make them into a vessel of dishonor. Jer 18:5-10 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and IF THAT NATION I WARN REPENTS of its evil, then I WILL RELENT and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and IF IT DOES EVIL in my sight and DOES NOT OBEY me, THEN I WILL RECONSIDER the good I had intended to do for it. NIV Paul even concedes this point in the last few verses that close this chapter: Rom 9:30-33 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because THEY PURSUED it not by faith but as if it were by works. THEY STUMBLED "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV Notice some key words…They pursued….They stumbled. The emphasis on their situation was based upon the poor choices they made not something God determined they would before the dawn of time. God did determine that if they did make poor choices He would punish them, but He did not decree that Israel would reject Him. What about the hypothetical questions that occur throughout the 8th chapter of the book of Romans? God did choose the older child to serve the younger. God did use pharaoh to bring about judgment on Israel. God did, through the death of Christ, seem to change Israel’s position in the scheme of things (Don’t want to debate this issue.) which made them a vessel of dishonor. But does that mean that God DETERMINES EVERYTHING? My answer is no. God does have a plan and He does intervene in the affairs of men, but that does not mean He has dictated EVERY event that is going to happen and that has happened. It goes back to the jump in logic: God intervened in X situation therefore he must INTERVENE or DETERMINE the outcome of ALL situations. I can’t make that jump. |
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3 | response | Rom 1:18 | Reformer Joe | 21856 | ||
I couldn't help but notice you took one clause out of my post and built a whole response to it. Were the verses I gave in the rest of the sentence not sufficient to support my point? I would especially like your take on Jesus' quotes from John 6. Who CAN come to the Son? Who are the only ones who WILL come to the Son? Who are the ones of whom Jesus will not lose ANY? All the same group of people: the ones that the Father permits and causes to come to him. In any case, you seem to think that I hold that people do not make REAL choices. I am not going to repeat myself on that again. We act according to our natures. What is the nature of the unregenerate? Those Jeremiah passages must also be taken in context of the other passages in Jeremiah in which God says that Judah's doom in inevitable (read: it is CERTAIN to happen), where he tells Jeremiah not even to pray for the nation. God call everyone outwardly to repent. There is no question that anyone in the hearing of God's call to repentance has heard what they SHOULD/MUST do. However, because of our own sinful nature (Romans 3:10-18), we won't do what we should do unless God changes out hearts so that we will want to do so. In the very book you cited as evidence for your position, we find that mine is supported: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil." --Jeremiah 13:23 This is an indictment of the NATURE of man. We can do good just as easily as a leopard can change his spots. Good luck! You wrote: "It goes back to the jump in logic: God intervened in X situation therefore he must INTERVENE or DETERMINE the outcome of ALL situations. I can’t make that jump." I didn't base that on an inductive leap in logic, but from clearly stated passages of Scripture. --Joe! |
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