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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34478 | ||
What is 'the fruit of the vine'? Most people in American protestant churches or in churches rooted in American Protestantism believe it is "any fruit of the vine" or that it is "grape juice". At first glance, the phrase could be taken to mean anything that originates in the vine. However, if we are to practice good principles of hermeneutics, we need to establish the scope of meaning (if any) as it was used in the first century. This has been discussed to some extent in the context of 1 Cor 11:17 ff. However, I have been doing some further study on this and have found that the more I study, the more evidence I find that it can only be wine and can never be grape juice. Have any of you got any evidence that contradicts this? I will be posting some more thorough notes in due course. | ||||||
2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | RAVEN | 34490 | ||
I do not know where your information come from but this is what the bible says about it. Also for Jesus Christ to institute the Lords Supper and ask us to remember Him this way, your way would be calling the savior a drunk since the fruit of the vine is to represent His blood. Please read the following scriptures and remember the bible does not contridict itself and you should arive at an answer using only the bible. Proverbs 23 29Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? 30Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. 31Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; 32At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. 33Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things. Luke 1 14And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34629 | ||
Thanks for the quotes but . . . 1. Prov 23:29-33. This verse is talking about someone who drinks too much, not someone drinking in moderation. The Bible roundly condemns drunkenness but also speaks of the blessing of wine. Historic fact: Grape juice, in Jesus time, was only available for a day or two after harvest as in that warm climate fermentation began almost immediately. Grape juice as we have it today is the result of Thomas Welch developing the technique of pasteurising grape juice in 1869 (This can be verified by a quick visit to Welch's website). By Jewish tradition at the time of Christ pasteurised grape juice would have been unacceptable for passover because it had been boiled. Moreover the blessing on "the fruit of the vine" could only be prayed over wine. If they had had grape juice available at the time the blessing for that would have been "the fruit of the tree" (Mishna Berakoth 6.5). 2. Luke 1. This is talking about John the Baptist and has reference to the Nazarite vow. This vow actually forbade any consumption of anything that came from the vine including: pips, juice, grapes, wine and vinegar. However, Nazarites were not exempt from drinking the required cups at passover -- even though these cups contained wine. Another point of interest: grapes have yeast on their skins naturally. It is virtually impossible to wash off. Since this is the case, when grapes are crushed the resulting juice has yeast or leaven in it. If this juice is pasteurised (to kill any bacteria or yeast) the yeast remains in the resulting liquid. However, in the wine making process the yeast grows and multiplies while converting the sugar to carbon dioxide and alcohol. When the alcohol reaches about 18 percent the alcohol kills the yeast and the yeast begins to settle to the botom of the vat. Through a process of "racking" wine makers clarify the wine by pouring off the clear liquid from the sludge (leys) in the vat. In addition, ancient wine makers put clay into this wine to help the sedimentation that results in a clear wine. At the end of this process, wine is unleavened and grape juice is not. God provided a mechanism for the wine used at Passover to conform to the law that they have no leaven in their homes. Although the ancients did not even realise this I Believe this is another evidence of God's wonderful providence. I see a symbolism in this. There is an equation of sin with leaven. For the Lord's Supper, Jesus used unleavened bread. It was the job of the people to ensure that their bread was unleavened. So too with the church that the bread represents -- It is our job to keep the church as pure as we can. The wine that represents Jesus blood, however, is also pure of the yeast (sin) and that was God's job to take care of. God has always been responsible for the sinlessness of the blood. This is just my personal opinion but may be of interest to you and others. Jesus DID drink wine. When accused of being a drunkard or winebibber if he was a tee totaler he would have said so but instead he said "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Matt 11:1. Please note that Jesus did not deny drinking alcohol. There is a difference between drinking and drunkenness. |
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4 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | EdB | 34650 | ||
Tim Your case stands on real shaky ground, in fact some of your explanations are not factual to my knowledge. Having made a little wine in my day BC (long before salvation) you can get grapes to ferment but the process is hit or miss and the alcoholic content will be way down (far less than the 18 percent you stated Tim). Also to make wine everything has to sterilized or your wine will go bad. Fermentation is the process where yeast bacteria eat sugar and their waste becomes alcohol( doesn’t that sound tasty?). That in itself ought to tell you something. The process continues until the sugar is used up or until the alcoholic content gets so high the yeast die. Example (these figures are examples not fact) lets say it takes 4 cups of sugar to make a gallon of grape juice into wine at it’s highest alcoholic content. That wine would be a tasty but a little dry wine at about 18 percent alcohol level. If you added 5 cups of sugar you would have a very sweet wine at again 18 percent alcohol level. If you added only 3 cups you would have a very dry wine at 8-10 percent alcohol level. If you simply took grape juice and no sugar you would have a fruity but dryish wine at about 1 percent or less alcohol. Since alcohol acts as a preservative the higher the alcoholic content the longer the wine can be stored. A wine with very low alcoholic content would spoil very easy. In France around the fall time of the year they have a festival called Nouveau Buojelleaux (spelling) Which mean “new wine”. It is wine made naturally (without sugar) and has very low in alcoholic content and therefore without added preservatives a very short shelf life. Basically if it isn’t drank at the festival it begins to go bad and they pour what they call “old wine” out. An interesting note, this “new wine” which is so low in alcoholic content is the wine sought after, it seems their taste have tired of the “old wine” and they are now drinking the “BEST”. At the time of Jesus preservation of food and wine was important, without refined sugar alcoholic content sufficient for preservation as many suppose would be hard to reach. Honey and such could be added but you have the danger of introducing foreign bacteria could cause the wine to spoil into vinegar. The Jewish wine was mostly made from grapes that were crushed and the juice dried by the sun to form a dry film almost like “fruit rollups” the kids have today. Since it was a dry film it would last almost indefinitely and was very practical to carry and store. This dry film was added to water and reconstituted into grape juice when needed. Much like our juice which is labels reconstituted or made from condensed. It was good and for the most part tastes like fresh wine but you could tell the difference so “New wine” or fresh squeezing were sought after. They put new wine in new skins because the chemicals that were used to tan the new skins also killed any foreign bacteria and hence the wine would not begin to ferment, ferment to vinegar not alcoholic wine. Old skins which had been used to store wine would have a bacteria that would cause wine fermentation but alas the gas generated would cause the skin to burst and the wine lost. To make a case that the wine of the Bible was alcoholic is built on shaky ground, while it could have had some alcohol in it you would have to drink more than most could hold to feel any effect. Many say they had to drink it since the water was bad, believe me the water is still bad and they drink it right from the wells today. I’m sure there were those that made high alcoholic wine but that was not the norm and there other alcoholic drinks of the time many were much like what we call beer today, which are easier to make. Also Tim you mentioned the leaven and used the logic that since the leaven represents sin and would be present in the bread they used unleavened bread. You then stated the wine was fermented same leaven but would be dead hence they used fermented wine. However your point misses the fact the bread was baked and the heat would have killed and destroyed the yeast the same as fermentation does. The leaven in the bread was as dead if not more dead than any yeast in wine. Your moderation of drinking is okay but by definition an alcoholic is anyone that has to have a drink. Be it they stay constantly drunk or have one drink a year. I have a very good friend that drinks about once a year but don't get between him and his drink that one time. Alcohol has destroyed more lives than it has helped and like playing with fire is best left alone. EdB |
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