Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 34758 | ||
Ed: I did not intend to raise a rallying cry for wine use, since I think that there are much more serious issues than this that the church is dealing with these days. Just to comment briefly on a few items... "That because we don't use alcoholic wine God receives no glory in communion? And that communion without alcohol is not administer rightly?" My church uses grape juice, and God is glorified. However, I do hold a stricter view than some that the Son of God consecrated bread and wine for the Lord's Supper, so that is really the right way to do it. After all, if we can use ANYTHING, why not pass out little peanut butter sandwiches and shots of Pepsi? I don't think that whether we use wine or grape juice is something to wage theological war over, but I do hold that wine is best. You wrote: "Yet science has proven even a small amounts of alcohol has negative effects on our body. While food can cause us problems, food has not been proven to alter our body chemistry to make itself addictive." Actually, science has shown just the opposite regarding alcohol in moderation (aids in breaking down LDL cholesterol, for example). As for food, the people who live the longest are most often vegetarians, because eating meat actually contributes to shortening the life span of human beings as well. So in the long run, eating the flesh of other creatures is detrimental to our health as well. In addition, where is the evidence that our body chemistry is actually altered by regular yet moderate alcohol use (or even frequent and immoderate alcohol use)? We are not talking about PCP or crack here. I would like to see some documentation to back up the *biochemical* addiction that comes from alcohol. You wrote: "If the Jew was so particular to insure all forms of leaven was removed from even the house during Passover why do we want to suggest they brought leaven in with the wine?" As was pointed out in another post, the alcohol during fermentation actually kills the yeast. I am sorry, but it really isn't even a reasonable argument that wine was not a staple drink in 1st-century Judea just as it is all around the Mediterranean today. That fact is that people drank wine then, at weddings and at dinner. Go to any European country, and you will see alcoholic beverages as a regular, non-controversial aspect of daily life. If you lived 300 years ago, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place at all. Also, there is no question that God made wine. That is clearly stated in Psalm 104:14-15. To deny that God made wine is to deny the biblical account. The tragedies that you mention in your post are not the result of God making wine, but man's abuse of God's gifts (as usual). You write: "If you want to argue Jesus made alcohol, understand you may be providing just the argument someone without your will power is looking for to get involved with alcohol. Personally I want no part of that involvement." Well, that is your right, but again you are saying that by speaking the truth that I would be leading someone into sin. That is not the least bit logical, Ed. Your whole posts smacks of implying, "If we say that God considers alcohol in moderation to be okay (even if it is true), the results of stating such a thing would be unthinkable." I must confess that I do not see a bunch of alcoholics waiting in the wings to embark on their drunkenness, stopped only by their church's prohibition on that first fatal drink. Lastly, you wrote: "Personally I would be more convince your not trying to self justify yourself if you said you never drink." I am not trying to justify anything, Ed. Please refrain from the ad hominem stuff and lets just stick to what Scripture says or does not say rather than trying to discover my "hidden motivation" for wanting so desperately for you all to be my co-dependents. :) --Joe! |
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2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34787 | ||
Thanks for your comments here! The question I asked was not about drinking wine from day to day but about what Jesus used, and expects us to use, for the Lord's Supper. The problem, I believe, is that man has made a law (abstain) that God does not make. When grape juice was introduced it was introduced in such a way as to imply this is what Jesus used. Since then there have been men who have tried to prove this and in order to do so have stooped to misqouting historic references and rejecting the evidence of the Bible itself to try and prove that the wine Jesus made at Cana or the fruit of the vine he used for his supper were non-alcoholic. I personally went to the local Jewish library and checked these references for myself and found that the evidence actually points to the wine being not only fermented but quite well fermented. When objectors to wine have no valid arguments left they resort to sarcasm or personal attack. I sought definition for the phrase "the fruit of the vine" and the only evidence I found said it was wine. Most of my material was originally provided by Evelyn Mundell but I confirmed everything he quoted for myself. He has a huge thesis on this subject and over half of it deals specifically with objections. Again I went through these objections and found that they had no substance. Most were purely emotional "what about the poor alcoholics". I have also recently been communicating with a man by the name of Art Thompson and a friend of his, Bob West. Art has a website with the content of his book about the Lord's Supper that bears looking at -- http://216.71.136.180/studies/supper/tlstext.htm and http://216.71.136.180/studies/supper/tlsbiblio.htm I will be posting my friend Evelyn's book on the web soon and will encourage anyone looking for scholarly research to look at that. In His Service Tim Sheasby |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34807 | ||
Greetings Tim! I checked out your friend's web sites, and I have two major compliants! 1) He only deals with two of the many words translated as 'wine' in the Bible. 2) He asserts that these words always refer to fermented wine, which is simply not true. If you refer back to the word studies I posted earlier on this topic, there are many words which are translated as 'wine'. Some alway mean a fermented drink. Some never mean a fermentated drink. The two words your friend highlights are two very generic terms which can either fermented or not. Your friend gets around this fact by catagorizing every occurances where they do not refer to fermented drinks as "figures of speech"! This is simply not honest word study. One must take into account all the uses of a word in determing it's meaning, not just the uses that support one's theory. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 35128 | ||
Tim, I will be posting the work of Evelyn Mundell on my personal website very soon. We are dealing with a major congregational problem right now and this has sadly affected our work adversely. There has been a young man sowing disention in the congregation and this has become a serious problem right now. After tonight, if the Lord wills, we will be able to post our research and demonstrate why we believe Jesus used wine for the Lord's Supper. I know that many will disagree with this research but I believe this will give a thorough and scholarly study for any that are interested. In His Service Tim Sheasby |
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5 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 35139 | ||
Greetings Tim! I know I'm looking forward to reading your work my friend! I pray that everything goes well with your congregation! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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