Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 26887 | ||
Hank, You asked me to explain the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and how it can be justified by scripture.The key text for the doctrine is Luke 1:28. “Hail full of grace!” Implicit, not explicit, in that passage is the fullness of holiness by God’s grace. The Greek word used for full of grace is “kecharitome”, a perfect passive participle indicating “one (she) who has been perfected in grace,” a past action that is ongoing. Fullness of grace is incompatible with sin. Nevertheless, one who demands an explicit “proof text” might says Luke 1:28 does not satisfy their demand. However, there is more to the matter than a single verse from the Catholic perspective. Christians read scripture in several ways. Two of them are the literal and the typological senses. St. Paul was a master of typological interpretation of the Old Covenant in light of the New Covenant. This sense of interpretation is also prominent in the writings of the early Church Fathers following his pattern. As Paul saw Jesus Christ prefigured in many inferior ways in the Old Testament (Hebrews 1:1, Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 15: 22, 45; Romans 5:14; Hebrews 10: 1; Hebrews 17 are just a few examples, so you see the same pattern in reference to Mary in my original posts on Mary, Ark of the New Covenant and Mary the New Eve on 12-8-01. Please refer back to them. A rule of biblical typology is that the New Testament fulfillment is always greater and more perfect that the Old Testament foreshadowing type. As Jesus is superior to Adam and the perfect new Adam, so Mary is superior to Eve. Both Adam and Eve were created or “conceived” in the mind and action of God without sin, yet they both fell. So Jesus and Mary must be superior to Adam and Eve in that they are both conceived without sin, but remained obedient and did not sin. Jesus is perfect of course due to His own merits, Mary due to God’s prevenient saving grace in fulfillment of God plan of Salvation. This is a very brief treatment of the subject, but something worth exploring on your own if you are so inclined. Thank you for your kind words. Peter, popes and infallibility, next post, per your request. |
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2 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 26890 | ||
You mention that Paul clearly demonstrates that Jesus is the Second Adam. Why do you suppose that he did not clearly expound the doctrine you put forth here of Mary being the second Eve? If it is so absolutely central to Christianity, why is it not mentioned ONCE in the epistles? Justification is talked about incessantly. So is grace and faith and the role of works and the absolute centrality of Christ as the redeemer. NOTHING about Mary in any of Paul's epistles. James doesn't refer to her. Peter (the "first pope") doesn't either. Since I do not hold that Revelation 12 is a good argument, I hold that John doesn't either. Nowhere! Nowhere! Two of the gospels do not even record the story of Christ's birth and the Anunciation! Face it: Emmaus. Mary was chosen by God, therefore she was blessed. Not sinless. ---- Let's look at Luke 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." --Luke 1:28 (NASB) The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." --Luke 1:28 (NIV) And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women! --Luke 1:28 (NKJV) And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. --Luke 1:28 (KJV) And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" --Luke 1:28 (RSV) And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" --Luke 1:28 (ESV) And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you." --Luke 1:28 (the *Catholic* New American Bible) All of these versions use the word "favored" or "highly favored." The exact Greek word is used in one other place in the New Testament. Does it refer to Mary? No. Jesus? Nope. Then to whom does it refer? Let's take a look: "to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." --Ephesians 1:6 (NASB) "to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." --Ephesians 1:6 (ESV) for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved." --Ephesians 1:6 (New American Bible) "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." --Ephesians 1:6 (KJV) So the word is translated "freely bestowed," "blessed," or "made accepted" in these three translations. However, you translate it, the exact word used to describe Mary (which you say implies her sinlessness) is used to describe ALL CHRISTIANS. So either all Christians have no sin or your argument deflates. Make Christ the center of your theology. He certainly is the center of Scripture! --Joe! |
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3 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 26985 | ||
"Let's look at Luke 1:28" and Ephesians 1: 6 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Luke 1:28 (NIV) And what is grace but God’s favor freely bestowed? Highly favored, full of grace, perfected in grace. The Greek work is in the perfect tense participle, “kecharitomene”. ”All of these versions use the word "favored" or "highly favored." The exact Greek word is used in one other place in the New Testament. Does it refer to Mary? No. Jesus? Nope. Then to whom does it refer? Let's take a look: “ Yes, let’s take a closer look. This is not the “exact Greek word” in both verses. In Ephesians 1: 6 it is “echaritosen” the aorist tense indicative form of an action brought to pass, grace bestowed on us. Greek is a much more precise language than English. "to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." --Ephesians 1:6 (NASB) However there is a perfect participle in Ephesians 1:6.It is the “beloved” referring to Jesus. No comparison to us and him. We are aorist tense, He is perfect tense. ”Make Christ the center of your theology. He certainly is the center of Scripture! “ Christ is the center of my theology. My whole input began in response to a question about Mary, not Jesus. It is only the fact that Mary is the subject of this particular thread that may make it appear to you my theology is centered on her. It is not. Ask me about Jesus. We will probably agree on everything about him. I fell pretty certain this will not be acceptable to you but there it is. I am done with this thread. As I said before, ask we about Jesus and we will probably find nothing to debate. Which was not what I intended when I answered the first question on where Catholics get the idea of Mary Queen of Heave, I was just giving the correct answer. That is where Catholic get it. Others may not but Catholics do. |
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4 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 26991 | ||
Emmaus: These are the only times that ANY of the forms of that verb are used in the entire Bible. As a linguist, I can tell you that changing the tense of a verb does not change the action itself, but rather the time of its occurance and its frequency. Therefore, whether it is present or past or future, habitual or continuous or one-time does not change the fact that we are talking about a bestowal of God's favor upon individuals. The verb speaks nothing of Mary (or us) meriting such a bestowal. God gave favor to Mary. God freely gave it to us. That is the classical Protestant understanding of grace. Unmerited favor. You would think that if your understanding were correct that the New American Bible would have translated it "full of grace" like you originally suggested. Guess the most popular Catholic Bible doesn't have the Greek knowledge that you do... And we would have a lot to debate about on Jesus, I am sure. The Reformation was about more than indulgences after all! --Joe! |
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5 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 26992 | ||
When did I ever say Mary or we merited grace? We have no dispute on the definition of grace. You seem set on finding points to argue. That is not my purpose on this forum. I am here give my answers or notes on scriptual questions and to hear others. I do not attack them or their positions. If you can show where I have initiated an attack please do so. You have accused me of blasphemy, heresy and idolatry. I must admit I have grown to expect this from certain quarters, but I have never grown used to it. It is not a very good strategy for winning hearts minds or souls. |
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6 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 27006 | ||
Emmaus, thank you for your care and effort in answering some of my questions about the beliefs of Catholicism. I believe the only one remaining of those I asked is the one concerning the doctrine of the infallibility of the pope. I'm keenly aware that a funny thing happened to you on your way to the forum with my answers in hand. You ran smack dab (that's a good old Arkansas exression), smack dab into a rip-roaring debate. Well, anyway, I'm pleased that all participants survived -- bruised perhaps, but not mortally wounded -- and I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your efforts and truly feel that you are making an honest effort and doing an honorable job of presenting your communion's points of view, which is what I asked for to begin with. Pray continue. --Hank | ||||||
7 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 27130 | ||
Hank, This will require multiple posts. As you may already be aware the Catholic position on Peter, the papacy and papal infallibility starts at Matthew 16:18-19. “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Anyone demanding a proof text that says literally: “the popes are Peter’s successors and are infallible” should read no further. It isn’t in the bible and you won’t find it here. A discussion of Church structure and authority also presumes a belief in a visible Church. Catholics believe in that also, based on their understanding of scripture, others may not. Catholics as everyone knows are not “ Sola Scriptura” or “Bible Alone” people. Which is not to say they are unbiblical people, opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. Infallibility is not impeccability. Popes can and do sin. Some few seem to have wallowed in sin. That is not what this discussion is about. Let’s start with Matt 16:18 in its context: Matt 16:13-19 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." At this point a few facts indicating Peter’s primacy among the Apostles seems in order. In the New Testament, Peter, under his various names, Simon, Peter, Cephas, Kephas, Simon Peter, is mentioned 195 times. The closest after him is the Apostle John mentioned 29 times. Whenever all the names of the Apostles are listed Peter is always first and Judas Iscariot is always last. Matt 10:2-5, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-17, Acts 1:13. Sometimes they are referred to only as “Peter and his companions” or in a similar manner. Luke 9:32, Mark 16:7, Acts 2:37. Peter is seen as the spokesman for the whole group in Matt 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 8:45, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69. |
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