Results 1 - 4 of 4
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 26328 | ||
You ask: "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to Mary and if you do, what confidence do you have, or faith or whatever it is that you want to call it, that she hears you and where in the Bible do you get this assurance? Catholics pray "to" Mary and the saints only in the same sense that we would ask a friend or family member to pray for us or with us about any matter. Catholics believe in the "communion of saints." That is we believe that God is the God of the living (Matt 22:32), and that all those who are in Christ are alive in him even after physical death. In a sense after they die they are with Him in an even deeper and intimate sense than we are here on earth. But still Jesus, is the vine and we are all the branches on earth heaven that trust in Him and obey (John 15:1-10). St. Paul in his epistles often asks for the prayers of his congregations and assures them of his prayers for them. He also speaks of being physically absent from them but with them in the spirit (1 Cor. 5:3, Col. 2:5). Although he was alive on the earth at the time he wrote, the same principle applies after death if God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead in the physical sense, but counted among the living by Jesus in Matt 22:32. And so to live in Christ is to transcend the separation of death by faith, hope and charity (1 Cor. 13:13). In the Book of Revelation we see the Church in heaven praising God (Rev 4) and praying before God for the Church on earth (Rev 6:9-11 and 7:9-8:5). See also Hebrews 11 especially 11:40 through 12-4 that speaks of how those who have gone before us are bound together with us in salvation and are a great cloud of witnesses as we continue in our struggle against sin. So we ask them to pray with us and for us before the throne of God, starting with Mary, God's own chosen vessel, and all the saints throughout the ages as well as those struggling here with us. |
||||||
2 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Bob Y. | 26347 | ||
Emmaus, The "communion of saints", as I understand it, is from the creeds and refers to the assembly of believers. No where in the Bible does it say that the living are to "commune" with those who have passed on. In your scripture you seem to be making up rules for communing with those who have physically died. You write of the apostle Paul: "Although he was alive on the earth at the time he wrote, the same principle applies after death if God is the God of the living" What you have wrote here is an assumption, based on your own logic, that is not supported by scripture. The Bible discribes the death of saints as a sleep. It would be hard for me to pray with you when I'm asleep. Only God can awaken those who are "asleep in Jesus" so it would be usless to pray to them first. 1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Below is the end of a prayer that was written by the Pope, posted on the forum by Nolan. Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation. O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God and our Mother, Mary! From this prayer it doesn't sound like he is asking Mary to pray with him, he is asking Mary to intercede for him as an advocate to "obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation" To pray in this manner is counter to scripture. 1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; God is eternal and being eternal it is impossible for Him to have a "mother". God put on humanity as Jesus and Mary is the mother of that humanity. She is not the "Mother of God". To say she is the mother of God would be calling God created and it is He who created Mary. I suggest you pray to the one who never sleeps and not to those who sleep in Jesus, so that your prayers will be heard. Jhn 16:26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; Jhn 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. Rejoice in the Lord, Bob |
||||||
3 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 26359 | ||
Which Church wrote the early Creeds and how did that Church interpret the communion of saints? Here is how a few members of that early Church understood the communion of saints. All predate 325 A.D. while the Church was still being persecuted and before Constantine declared the Edict of Milan. I do not think these were people who had abandoned the faith of the Apostles or who were unfamiliar with their writings in Scripture. Scriptures follow. You may disagree with the early fathers or the intreptation of the scripture as presented, but this is how I see it. Clement of Alexandria "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). Origen "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). Cyprian of Carthage "Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]). Methodius "Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]). "Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.). "And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.). After the divisions of the Reformation some churches do interpret communion of saints as you do. Are we still alive in Christ after we die? Asleep is a euphemism that means we are not truly dead and without hope but are truly alive in Christ but are dead only in the flesh. It is true a few groups such as the Adventists and The Jehovah witnesses, I believe, who subscribe to the sleep theory as you appear to interpret sleep in Thessalonians. Moses and Elijah when they appeared with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration did not seem asleep to the three apostles who were present. In Revelation, "the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). This looks like the saints in heaven offering to God the prayers of the saints on earth. The elders look like the saints in heaven to me. " Another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4). "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10). Looks like intercession by angels to me. The peace of Christ to you Bob. |
||||||
4 | "am I wrong in thinking that you pray to | Bible general Archive 1 | Hank | 26369 | ||
The antiquity of a belief, practice or doctrine doesn't necessarily enhance its likelihood of being right or diminish the possibility of its being wrong. Both orthodoxy and heresy have been around since the apostolic church. Neither vindication or accusation is being meted out to the venerable church fathers from whose works you quote in your post -- merely the observation that the fact that someone lived in the second or third centuries does not make him immune to doctrinal error. --Hank | ||||||