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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | Mathew | 90291 | ||
Hello RoaringLamb, Doesnt the words "so as not to see death" mean that Enoch didnt die. But I do beleive that God did change him. Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated so as not to see death, and he was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. MaTT |
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2 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90379 | ||
Hi, MaTT - We can be certain from the scriptures that Enoch died (so did Elijah), as we'll see below. But first, let's see how many have erred in reading this verse... The words "so as not to see death" are not the same as "did not die." The KJV and ASV read "that he should not see death"; and the RSV reads "so that he should not see death." Enoch was translated to escape the same death you and I have been translated and shall escape: the second death. The Greek word "metatithemi" translated in this verse into the English word "translated" is also used in Colossians 1:13 to describe WHAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO THE SAINTS (that is, YOU AND ME): "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son..." (KJV) The NAS says "transferred us into the kingdom," and the NKJ uses "conveyed." The Greek can be translated as transfer, change, carry over, or remove. When we were saved, we were translated into the kingdom of the Son. So was Enoch - he was merely CONVERTED, as we have been. His not seeing death is no more a contradiction as Jesus saying of us: "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" - we might croak but we'll never PERISH (John 3:16). But how do we know that Enoch died? Because JESUS HIMSELF TOLD US! NO ONE - neither Enoch, Elijah, not even king David, a man after God's own heart - has yet gone to heaven (that is, the third heaven, where Jesus now is): "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13) Now, this raises a whole lot of other questions, doesn't it? Yeah, I know... |
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3 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | Morant61 | 90384 | ||
Greetings Roaring Lamb! One quick correction if I may! The verbs used in Heb. 11:5 and Col. 1:13 are two different verbs. Heb. 11:5 uses 'metatithemi' - Strong's number 3346. While, Col. 1:13 uses 'methistemi' - Strong's number 3179. p.s. - Welcome to the forum! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90385 | ||
Hi, Tim! Thanks for the assist. I've seen some of your input on other branches and was hoping we would eventually get to sharpen each other's swords. There's so much we need to discuss in the body of Christ! I hope you will check out a discussion under the "Rapture different from Second Coming?" branch and join in. By the way, what is your take on my reply to MaTT? And does the above error have any effect on what is being said overall? In Christ, RL |
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5 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | Morant61 | 90391 | ||
Greetings Roaring Lion! The only effect I would see is that one could not make a direct comparison of Col. 1:13 and Heb. 11:5, since different verbs are used. As far as the overall point, it is too speculative for my taste. Scripture never says that Enoch or Elijah did or didn't die, though the overall flavor of the comments definitely seem to suggest that they did not die. But, since nothing is ever said explicitely, it becomes more speculation than anything else. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90455 | ||
Greeting, Tim! You are correct. The exact verbs are different. However, the import is the same. At least the lexicographers and Bible translators thought so. The same English words appear in the definitions of the root Greek words for both verbs. Coupled with the common root, they form the equivalent of our English word "translated." Now, I'm no expert on Greek but I am familiar with English. In English, we often use different inflections of a word to say the same thing, or use different words that mean exactly the same thing (ensure, insure; flammable, inflammable). We refer to Strong's as an authority for what Greek words and roots the English words were translated from, but to define the Greek to us they still have to use English! We also recognize the expertise of Bible translators in our use of English translations. Often we use the former to check the accuracy of the latter. However, this time they agree. Do we now disqualify both? The direct comparison, then, is valid. Both verbs carry the same import: to transpose, to transfer, to change, or to remove. Then we still haven't dealt with John 3:13. If Enoch, Elijah, David, and no one else has gone to heaven, where are they now? The answer to these questions will lead us to other, more important, questions. After all, these things do not determine our salvation, do they? But there is an aspect that is important to our service to God - particularly as pertains to reaching the unsaved - and that's where I am heading with this. As for anything not explicitly stated being speculation, if we ascribe to this stipulation, we have to throw out many major doctrines - including the idea that "translated" in the passages we are discussing means "taken to heaven." Neither the Strong's definitions nor the English renderings of these verses explicitly say that. It is clear that we get our meaning from context -- but not just the immediate context of the verses or even just the chapters. The context is the whole Bible (2 Tim. 3:16). The COMPLETE study on this involves many other scriptures and leaves nothing to speculation. I am confident that the Spirit of God will lead us to truth. As "iron sharpens iron," both blades must lose some of their iron, and both become sharper. Your brother in Christ, RL |
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