Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Reformer Joe | 14111 | ||
Tim: Following my clarification of different views on free will, where is the biblical support that God's grace only makes salvation possible rather than makes salvation a reality for all who receive it? And the biggest question: what makes one person who receives God's prevenient grace trust in Christ and another who receives God's prevenient grace continue to reject him? Seems that in Arminian view, the former person would indeed have reason to boast, whether it be on the basis of his own goodness, or his intelligence, or his wisdom, or his clear-sightedness, or something. If anything in ourselves is required for God's grace to be salvific, even if it is only cooperating with His prevenient grace, then we do indeed have a reason to boast, and Paul was wrong. Calvinists do not take a few obscure words to try and "explain away" clear statements in Scripture. Calvinists realize that there are verses which are apparent contradictions when taken in isolation. However, when examined in the context of the passages in which they were written, the contradictions can easily be explained away. For example, in Romans 9-11 it is you who are trying to take straightforward statements such as 9:15 and say that God "really doesn't only show mercy to some and not others," despite the fact that almost anyone reading that without a predisposition to reject such a notion would come precisely to that conclusion. One has to ignore Pharoah's hardening of heart as an active choice on God's part. One has to ignore the fact that the very author of Romans was apparently not given a choice as to whether he was one of the elect or not (show me one shred of evidence in Acts 9 that points to Paul's free will in initiating his salvation). Despite your claim that it is Christ who was chosen/elect (same word in the Greek), God makes it very clear that it is a set of individuals who are chosen. Who does the choosing? Let's see: "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness" --Titus 1:1 " Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." --1 Peter 1:1-2 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven." --Mark 13:27 (Christ isn't gathering Himself here) "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you..." 1 Thessalonians 1:4 "So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience" Colossians 3:12 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." -- Thessalonians 2:13 "...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" Ephesians 1:4-5 Over and over again we see that: 1. God chooses. We do not see one NT passage which suggests that God chooses us because we choose him. Every time a form of the word eklegomai, God is the subject and one or more Christians are the direct object. Never is it used of humanity in general, and the very nature of the word "choose" implies that some are placed in a different category than others. Scripture makes this clear that is is not based on us (or we would have reason to boast), but rather on the wise counsel of God (Ephesians 1:11). It is the Arminian who seeks to "explain away" the clear statements of Scipture. You may accuse the Calvinist of insisting that "all" doesn't mean "all" in all cases (without indicating the contextual basis for his doing so), but it is you, Tim, who are guilty of insisting that "chosen by God" doesn't really mean "chosen by God," but rather "chosen by God because man really made the choice." --Joe! |
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2 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | EdB | 14131 | ||
Reformer Joe and Morgan61 let me ask some questions. What is accomplished by the two of you going back and forth rehashing the same ground? One makes a point the other tells him he took scripture out of context or didn’t interpret it right, then the other comes back with his points showing where the other did the same. If one or the other could be proven right, assuming your both saved, what would the winner have the loser do different? What would the winner do different? In truth how does this discussion effect eternity? The points you hash and rehash are the standard points of Calvinism and Arminianism, your presenting nothing new. The debate has raged for over 400 years. My question to the both of you to what end? If you really enjoy flogging a dead horse why not give each other your e-mail address and you two can go at each other until you tire or declare a winner (if that happened I would fall over dead :-) ) and give the forum a break. I’m not being mean spirited or at least I not trying, but I have read point and counter point and neither one has convinced the other and I suspect neither ever will. Why not give us all a rest? |
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3 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Makarios | 14142 | ||
Dear EdB, I most heartily agree with you! This whole debate needs a long rest.. I greatly respect Tim and his views and his generosity in displaying the "Arminian view" of specific verses. I have truly enjoyed following his study. I also respect Reformer Joe and his arguments, in which I have learnt much, even though I often disagree with Joe's conclusions. However, we have come dangerously close to rehashing this whole debate since both Tim and Joe are replying to each other on specific points (in which anyone could jump into), and I pray that this dialogue would come to a close soon in order to prevent what could be another Arminian Calvinism war on this Forum. I would pray that at least one or more person(s) agrees with us, EdB, that the eruption of another "Calvo-Armi" war would not be healthy at all for the Forum. Your Brother in Christ, Nolan |
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4 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Morant61 | 14223 | ||
Greetings Nolan! You know how much I appreciate you as a brother and a friend (even though we haven't had to chance to meet yet). But, I have to mildly disagree with you on this point. I really think that some are being overly sensitive on this issue. Joe and I are not warring (and I know you didn't say we were). In fact, even during the previous debate, I don't recall any hard feelings or harshness (maybe I missed out on that.) My view is simple. 1) Complex issues can't be discussed in a simple fashion. What I mean is, not every issue will be resolved in one or two posts. This one may never be resolved, but it is a good discussion. I know I'm learning from it. 2) Anyone who isn't interested, doesn't have to take part or even read the posts. We are all at different stages in our Christian walks. I know there are some posts that do not interest me in the slightest. I simply pass over them. As long as there is no bickering taking place, I have no problem with a "long" discussion. I also look forward to others adding their comments when they feel they have something to add. Well, I've got to get to bed! I am about to fall aslllllllleeeeeppp! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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