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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Limited Atonement a "scandalous" Doc | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 34937 | ||
Dear Tim, My first response to this post was sent in haste and did not address fully the questions and conclusions that were included in it. In fact it is only now that I have the time available to devote to it the attention it deserves. My understanding of "all" in 2 Cor 5:14 is all thr elect. I base this on 2 Cor 1:1, which informs me who Paul is addressing: the church of God in Corinth and the saints in Achaia. To conclude that "all" refers to all mankind, does not seem to be supported given the context. v. 19 "God was reconcilling the world to Himself in Christ". This verse is a more difficult one to understand. (This is one of the reasons I love this forum, we are driven not merely read scipture but to dig deeper into it, emploring God The Holy Spirit to enlighten our understanding!) "Reconcile" here is in the form of a verb indicating an action or a process, not an accompished fact. Therefore, I am not persuaded to accept it as supporting your proposition that it supports unlimited atonement. If I am following your train of thought correctly, I would anticipate your reply to me to be that; God was reconcilling the world to Himself in Christ and it was accomplished when on the cross Jesus said "It is finished". Tim, Please correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption. I ask myself, is that what he meant? Had He been successful in reconcilling all of mankind to God? Or maybe He meant that He had been successful to the extent that He made reconciliation possible for all the world. Does Jesus mean by "it is finshed" that, He has accomplished all the Father has sent Him to do, and now it is up to the free will choice of mankind to appropriate reconciliation for themselves? The position of the Refomers based on their understanding of Scripture is that when Jesus died on the cross He sucessfuly obtained reconciliation for every person that the Father had sent Him to atone for. Hence, Atonement is limited to the exact number of the elect and when the very last one of those number are brought into The Kingdom of God the end of this age will come. I will attempt to support my conclusion and address your other questins to me with specific scripture in my next post to you Tim. God Bless You and Yours(even now one of mine has something for me to do) John |
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2 | Is Limited Atonement a "scandalous" Doc | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34958 | ||
Part III............................ 1 Cor. (continued) k) 1 Cor. 6:2 - "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?" l) 1 Cor. 7:31 - "those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away." m) 1 Cor. 7:33 - "But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—" n) 1 Cor. 7:34 - "and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband." o) 1 Cor. 8:4 - "So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one." p) 1 Cor. 11:32 - "When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." q) 1 Cor. 14:10 - "Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning." ‘World’ in 2 Corinthians (3 occurrences) a) 2 Cor. 1:12 - "Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God’s grace." b) 2 Cor. 5:19 - "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." c) 2 Cor. 7:10 - "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death." ‘World’ in Galatians (2 occurrences) a) Gal. 4:3 - "So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world." b) Gal. 6:14 - "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." ‘World’ in Ephesians (3 occurrences) a) Eph. 1:4 - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love" b) Eph. 2:2 - "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." c) Eph. 2:12 - "remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world." ‘World’ in Philippians (1 occurrence) a) Phil. 2:15 - "so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe" Note: ‘world’ is translate here as ‘universe’. ‘World’ in Colossians (3 occurrences) a) Col. 1:6 - "that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth." b) Col. 2:8 - "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." c) Col. 2:20 - "Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:" ‘World’ in 1 Timothy (3 occurrences) a) 1 Tim. 1:15 - "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst." b) 1 Tim. 3:16 - "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory." c) 1 Tim. 6:7 - "For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it." Summary: I went through all of this work for one reason: to show that an author’s use of a word is consistent throughout his writings. Just as was the case in John’s writings, so also Paul’s use of the word ‘world’ can be categorized under three headings: 1) The physical world or creation. 2) The individuals who live in the world. 3) The "worldly" system which stands in opposition to God. Thus, one cannot simply take 2 Cor. 5:19 and say that ‘world’ here means the elect. Paul never uses the word in that way. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Is Limited Atonement a "scandalous" Doc | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 34970 | ||
Dear Brother Tim, despite our differing views, I have no doubt but that we will both spend eternity together in the presence of our glorious Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ. I am deeply appreciate of the love you have shown toward me thru your labor on my behalf. You have not only contributed to my education in hermenutics, but have set an example of how christian brothers are to treat oneanother. I will peruse your posts with as much openmindedness and honesty as the grace of God provides this feeble sinner. I'm leaving now to meet my family for dinner and must stop. Thank you Tim, John |
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4 | Is Limited Atonement a "scandalous" Doc | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 35029 | ||
Greetngs John! I look forward to meeting my forum friends in Heaven, especially since I may not get to meet many here on earth. Charis and I did get a chance to meet over the internet via a video-conference. That was great! If anyone else has the capability to video conference, let me know. It is a lot of fun to meet people face to face after having written back and forth for awhile. Have a great Lord's Day my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Is Limited Atonement a "scandalous" Doc | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 35146 | ||
Dear Tim, Thanks to you and other friends my understanding of Limited Atonement has been greatly enhanced. I especially praise our Gracious God who gives us all good things! I have thus far been attempting to formulate my own interpretation of the doctrine in question and have been frustrated because of my own imperfect understanding. Therefore I would like to put forward a definition that comes from a source that, to put it mildly, is far more reliable than myself. It is my hope that it will be recieved as the definition upon which all further discussion can proceed. My contentionan all along has been that, because Limeted Atonement is a doctrine of the Reformed church, that that those who are called upon to prove or defend it must be permited to state for themselves that which they believe to be their correct position. I believe the following to be that which a majority of my reformed bretheren would concur to be an acceptible definition. Easton's Bible Dictionary Atonement: This word does not occur in the Authorized Version of the New Testament except in Romans 5:11, where in the Revised Version the word "reconciliation" is used. In the Old Testament it is of frequent occurrence. The meaning of the word is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation. Thus it is used to denote the effect which flows from the death of Christ. But the word is also used to denote that by which this reconciliation is brought about, viz., the death of Christ itself; and when so used it means satisfaction, and in this sense to make an atonement for one is to make satisfaction for his offences (Exodus 32:30; Leviticus 4:26; 5:16; Numbers 6:11), and, as regards the person, to reconcile, to propitiate God in his behalf. By the atonement of Christ we generally mean his work by which he expiated our sins. But in Scripture usage the word denotes the reconciliation itself, and not the means by which it is effected. When speaking of Christ's saving work, the word "satisfaction," the word used by the theologians of the Reformation, is to be preferred to the word "atonement." Christ's satisfaction is all he did in the room and in behalf of sinners to satisfy the demands of the law and justice of God. Christ's work consisted of suffering and obedience, and these were vicarious, i.e., were not merely for our benefit, but were in our stead, as the suffering and obedience of our vicar, or substitute. Our guilt is expiated by the punishment which our vicar bore, and thus God is rendered propitious, i.e., it is now consistent with his justice to manifest his love to transgressors. Expiation has been made for sin, i.e., it is covered. The means by which it is covered is vicarious satisfaction, and the result of its being covered is atonement or reconciliation. To make atonement is to do that by virtue of which alienation ceases and reconciliation is brought about. Christ's mediatorial work and sufferings are the ground or efficient cause of reconciliation with God. They rectify the disturbed relations between God and man, taking away the obstacles interposed by sin to their fellowship and concord. The reconciliation is mutual, i.e., it is not only that of sinners toward God, but also and pre-eminently that of God toward sinners, effected by the sin-offering he himself provided, so that consistently with the other attributes of his character his love might flow forth in all its fulness of blessing to men. The primary idea presented to us in different forms throughout the Scripture is that the death of Christ is a satisfaction of infinite worth rendered to the law and justice of God (q.v.), and accepted by him in room of the very penalty man had incurred. It must also be constantly kept in mind that the atonement is not the cause but the consequence of God's love to guilty men (John 3:16; Romans 3:24,25; Ephesians 1:7; 1 John 1:9; 4:9). The atonement may also be regarded as necessary, not in an absolute but in a relative sense, i.e., if man is to be saved, there is no other way than this which God has devised and carried out (Exodus 34:7; Joshua 24:19; Psalms 5:4; 7:11; Nahum 1:2,6; Romans 3:5). This is God's plan, clearly revealed; and that is enough for us to know. As you can see Tim, atonement is understood by calvists to be an effect of Christ's sacrifice. Viewed as such the inexorable conclusion of those who hold that opinion must be that atonement itself is granted only to those who have benefited by the sacrifice (expiation). I went to long, will send followup. John |
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