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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34531 | ||
Greetings John! I know how busy one can get! :-) I went to the site you mentioned. Here is what it said about Limited Atonement: ********************************************* Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption) Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25). This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died! Source: www.reformed.org ************************************************* Notice the Scriptures that are used in this statement. a) John 17:9 - This verse deals with Jesus' prayer for His disciples. They are the ones who were given to Him from out of the world (v. 6). In verse 9, Jesus says that His praying for them, not for the world. No where in this passage does it say that He only atoned for the sins of some. Salvation is not even the context. b) Mt. 26:28 we have already dealt with. The word "many" is used in Romans 5 in a context which clearly indicates "all". Thus, "many" must not mean "some" as opposed to "all". c) Eph. 5:25 says that Christ died for the church, but it does not say that Jesus did not die for anyone else. The assumptions made from these verses simply don't line up with the clear inclusive statements of Scripture. a) 1 John 2:2 - " He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." b) 1 John 4:14 - "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." c) John 1:29 - "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, ‘‘Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" d) John 4:42 - "They said to the woman, ‘‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”" e) 2 Cor. 5:19 - "that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." If you do a search on "world" and "morant61", you will find a post I did a long time ago on how John uses the word "world" in his letters. Every single occurance is used as a reference to those who stand in opposition to God and hate Christians. Thus, "world" in 1 John 2:2 cannot mean "the elect all over the world". Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 34580 | ||
Hi Tim, Did dabney's article at least give you a clearer understanding regarding the reformed definition of Limited Atonement? I know it helped me to understand the difference between atonement (reconciliation) and expiation (sacrifice). The reformed believe that Christ's death was sufficent to provide salvation to all mankind, but actual atonement is limited to those individuals who by faith trust in Christ. I think that you would agree that, only those who believe (those who's sins are atoned for) are reconciled to God. I'm afraid that I am not convinced by your interpretation of John 17:9, that Christ is praying exclusively for His disciples. In vese 2 Jesus says "as you have given Him authority over all flesh, that He shall give eternal life to as many as you have given Him". In verse 20 Jesus says:"I do not pray for these alone but also for those who believe in me through their word". Therefore, given the whole context, Jesus is praying for all who the Father has given Him, believers and disciples alike. I would think that the tough questions for Arminians to answer would be: Why did Jesus exclude the world in His prayer? and, does the possibility exist that, depending on the context, John means different things at different times by the term world? God Bless Tim, Brother John |
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3 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34584 | ||
Greetings John! In his article, Dabney specically said that Jesus did not die in the same way for Judas as He did Paul or Peter. That is the part that I reject. He died for all, but not all receive His gift. Concerning John 17, read the statements Jesus makes about those for whom He is praying. He was with them, taught them, and protected them. He even alludes to Judas in v. 12. Then, in verse 20, He refers to those who will believe through their message. I still think the disciples are in view here. However, even if this is not the case, the passage does not say that His atonement is limited in extent! :-) If you read my post on the "world" in John, I listed every single occurance. You will find that there isn't any variation in meaning. You Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 34590 | ||
Dear Tim, If, as Dabney claims and Easton's Bible Dictionary confirms, that atonement is the same word as reconciliation then atonement would necessarily have to be limited. The alternative to Limited Atonement, as set forth, is Universal Atonement! All mankind would be reconciled to God by Christ's death and we know that thats not true. Why anyone should have a problem with this doctrine is beyond me. I really believe people who have a problem with limited atonement just do not understand the meaning of the word. It's either that, or they rather put up a strawman that can easily be knocked down. Of course, I don't place you, Tim, in the latter category. I have been extremely gratified and delighted with our exchanges, but golly gee it seems mighty plain and biblical to me! Looking forward to your reply, Bro. John |
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5 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 34592 | ||
Greetings John! Thanks for the kind words! :-) You are correct, the word translated atonement in Rom. 5:11 is 'reconcilation'. The problem is that there is no one Greek word for 'atonement'. There are several: reconcilation, propitation, ect... However, the word 'katallage' found in Rom. 5:11 is used three other times in the NT. Whatever the word means, in the other three occurances it applies to the whole world. To me, the conflict in our views is based upon unconditional election to salvation. Under Calvinism, all for whom Christ died must be saved, because it has been determined sovereignly. Therefore, He could not have died for the rest. Under Arminianism, Christ died for all, but they must also be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20). To use the analogy of a gift. Salvation was purchased for and offered to all. But, only those who receive it partake of it's benefits. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 34595 | ||
Dear Tim, God Bless you, I can't tell you how much you've blessed me thru your patient and thoughtful conversation. I was sure that that the problem was one of terms. Can I count you in as a one point calvinist? (ha,ha, just kidding). I must leave for church now. Talk to you later, Bro. John |
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