Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | kalos | 132121 | ||
Doc: I would not base a doctrine solely on a single verse of Scripture, a parable, or a narrative event. To do so often leads to inexplicable contradictions in the Scriptures (or their interpretation). Grace to you, Kalos |
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2 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | DocTrinsograce | 132146 | ||
I agree, Brother Kalos. Those are the rules of thumb that I follow, and are well defined in our tradition. Faced with others who do not apply those principles when deriving doctrine, I was curious to know what rules they do apply. Based on the answers I am getting back, it appears that either they do not have any rules, they are unable to articulate them, or they simply do not know how their doctrines were derived. I was not asking as a point of contention, but more out of curiosity. I think this might be a good time to post some of the principles of proper textual interpretation. The funny thing about those rules, is that they are not unique to Biblical hermeneutics. They are used every day in our legal system for the interpretation of any given document. Of course, the lawyers -- having once received a seminary degree in the early days of our country -- may well have borrowed these techniques. Sorry... too many rabbit trails here! |
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3 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | Aixen7z4 | 132153 | ||
Hello DocTrinesofgrace: I am attracted by the spirit that you project, so I will chance an exchange or two with you. Please excuse my timidity because I have been lured and zapped before and while I take a stand for truth, I try to avoid unpleasantness. May I say that I think most people try to be comfortable most of the time. They choose traditions and denominations where they can be comfortable. If they are not comfortable they would like to transfer to another or else to stay home. Some people have been in a tradition for a long time (They may have been born into it or brought into it at a time of great need, similar to that of an infant) and it is very difficult to leave, therefore they find ways to accommodate to the norms of the group. May I suggest that a position like that is inimical to a search for truth since we are somewhat compromised by our need to please the people in our group. Many groups have rules of thumb or principles that hold them together. Examples are “The Bible alone and in its entirety”, “We speak when the Bible speaks and we are silent when it is silent”, “The Bible explains itself”, “We accept any experience that does not violate Scripture”, etc. We apply these principles, but we are unable to determine why we accepted them in the first place, except that they were chosen for us by the group. Why, for example, why does “the Bible alone” include commentaries on the Bible? Why does “the Bible in its entirety” not include the Apocrypha? Why can we not live on John alone? What if that was all we had? And what if we were like Abraham, with no Bible at all? What I mean to say is in three parts. First, we should not discount the social pressure to conform to our group, and the attendant limitations on our own integrity. Secondly, it is difficult to hold to the rules and principles as our minds search for truth. Thirdly, as I think you have stated, the norms of a religious group are not essentially different from those of any other social group. What is the alternative, then? Is it possible to acknowledge the existence of splinter groups but to give allegiance only to the Holy Spirit and to seek to fellowship as widely as possible with all Christians? That is what some of us have chosen to do, acknowledging all of the traditions while eschewing divisions in the body of Christ. What do you think? |
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4 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | DocTrinsograce | 132254 | ||
Hi, Nobel... That was very well said! You have covered a lot of ground here. I appreciate your kind interest in my thoughts. I will do my best to present them clearly. I agree that we seek comfortable places. Isn't this just the nature of the flesh? I emphatically and enthusiastically agree with your statement about regarding such fleshly comforts being "inimical to a search for truth." You have stated this very well! For quite some time I have noticed this in my own life. Since the flesh is at war with the Spirit, the nearer I get to the things of the Spirit, the more uncomfortable I've become. It is so much easier to stay in my comfort zones! However, I've learned to use that discomfort -- and it is easy to recognize its source -- as indication that I'm heading in the right direction. (Of course, I don't mean this dogmatically. Excuse me, but it is getting late and I want to get this posted. Having spent the evening on a previous post, I need to hasten... but probably it will cost in terms of clarity on this post!) When I come to a passage of scripture that just doesn't "fit," causing me discomfort, I rejoice. Because that means I have found the perimeter of my own understanding. At that moment I am standing on the edge, and I have an opportunity to push the envelope. Now, when I speak of "traditions" I do so as a generic term for what you have called our norms and divisions. Terminology is extremely valuable for the purposes of communication. Much of the educational process (there's that word again!) of the believer is learning the language of Christianity. We must learn the terms of scripture, which include words like grace, faith, love, hope, etc. etc. None of which mean to believers what they mean to the world. Many errors in church history have stemmed from improper definitions. Ours is a very cerebral faith. We encouraged to study, learn, judge, test, examine, discern, etc. Words, therefore, are extremely important. So important, in fact, that God has provided us with a revelation that consists of a set of words... and He calls it The Word. God, in His great grace and mercy has not left us alone. He is given us the Holy Spirit to assist in this endeavor. Indeed, without the efficacious work of the Spirit, we could not begin to understand God's Word. Now, God has also given us fellow believers. Together we can worship Him and deliberate over His word. Each of us coming together in such a way that we are greater than the sum of our parts. Each with a unique perspective of the God Who by His own action has specifically and miraculously chosen and saved each one of us. Ephesians chapter two talks about how God has brought us together into one Temple... a Temple made without hands. Incredible. I'm sorry... but it is lightening outside... time to shutdown my machine... I've lost too many of them to thunderstorms! :-) Sorry for slapping this together! |
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5 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | Aixen7z4 | 132268 | ||
Thank you for taking the time to respond. What I want to say is simple. I think we put ourselves at a disadvantage when we get tied up with traditions of men and intellectual schools of thought instead of simply opening our hearts to the Spirit of God and the word of God. One gets caught up in a world of ideas put forth by men (though they claim to have gotten them from God’s word) and it takes so much time and effort to disentangle ourselves from them. We might want to simply ignore those nets, while still being aware of them, and take ourselves directly into the presence of God. As I pointed out, Abraham had no Bible, and yet he was a friend of God. Moses wrote a part of the Bible, yet he did not wrestle with the words. He went to God. If we are not careful we may make the word the major thing and the Holy Spirit a minor factor, simply to help us as we focus on the word. May I suggest that the Holy Spirit is the more important factor. The word is a guide, yes, and a check. But happy is the man who finds confirmation is Scripture for the thoughts that God has given him inside, in his heart, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Of course, it happens the other way as well, that the Spirit shows us God’s will in his word and enlightens us as to the application in life. ‘The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days”, saith the Lord, “I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them”’. Please note that the Lord is not interested in what we know nearly so much as what we do (1 Corinthians 8:1). Imagine what God thinks of the fact we know so much about love but do not practice it. Love is the principal thing. Yet studious and educated people can be so unloving. On this forum, we operate in the world of words and ideas. If we looked out the window of this ivory tower unto the streets we would realize that most of the people, even the Christians, are unable to relate to the words we are using here: Soteriology, exegesis, hermeneutics. Nor is it because they are uninterested in the things of God. Most people have no principles of textual interpretation, except it is to simply take God at his word. They have not been to seminary or read the works of the scholars. They may not understand Greek or Hebrew, or even English grammar. But they understand that God wants us to love him and to love each others All of the word feeds into that, and that makes it all so simple. “An highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein”. I do not want to criticize or to pick at any point of doctrine because I think God knows we only hold to those points that divide us because of the company we keep. If we are uncomfortable when we think outside of that box, it may be that God is calling us to freedom from that box. There is tension between the flesh and the spirit (Galatians 5:17) but we are not encouraged to enflame this but keeping a constant eye on the traditions of men. I think it is these traditions that keep us arguing and moving so slowly to the truth. Forgive me if I am wrong in sensing this, but I do sense that you are tightly tied to one of those traditions. I guess, from your screen name, that you find your very identity in it. There is a tension then, because you are pregnant with the ideas of that tradition and would like to bring them forth. If I am correct, it would be very difficult for you to shake free of it, since you consider it the truth. But I am so impressed that in every group there are those who feel as strongly that their tradition is the truth. Instead of identifying the rules of interpretation in our different traditions, I would encourage all of us to shake loose of those traditions. Am I suggesting the impossible? That is what Paul did (Galatians 1:13-16; Philippians 3:8-14). Nor was he giving up the bad for the good. He was giving up the good for the better (Hebrews 7:19,22, etc.). And we might do ourselves good by following suit. That is all I mean to say here. “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing“. “Consider what I say; and may the Lord give you understanding in all things”. |
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6 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | DocTrinsograce | 132401 | ||
Sir, thank you for your kind and considered words. I am quite certain that your intentions are of the very best sort. Some years ago I would have agreed with every word. I, too, felt very strongly that the mere thoughts of men were of no consequence. That I had something better in what I called "the leading of the Holy Spirit." It was a very comfortable place to be because it allowed me to discount any teaching that didn't "feel right" (which I called "discernment"). Of course, since I remained ignorant of anything that believers thought, suffered, experienced, or fought for, I was happy that I had reached the pinnacle of theological knowledge: "just Jesus and me." I said to myself, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing!" But I didn't know that I was "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." I didn't realize that what I was doing was living in the same kind of error that Gnostics espoused. Of course, I didn't know that because I didn't know what Gnostics were or what they believed. I couldn't see error, because I didn't bother to learn how Satan had deceived men in the past. I didn't even believe that I needed to diligently study the Word of God, because I thought the time had come when the Spirit would do all the teaching. Ignorance had become a crown that I wore proudly. My pastors and teachers told me how much closer to God I was for having the courage to shed all those old, musty traditions. I do appreciate what you are trying to do, sir. I have the same desire to help you! Isn't that why we are here in this forum... to learn and help others learn the truth of God? The truth of God is ageless. We in the Reformed Baptist tradition do not think that the truths of the doctrines of grace grew from the mind of Paul, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Whitfield, Toplady, Edwards, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, Schafer, or MacArthur. No, we believe that they originated entirely in the mind of God, before the foundation of the world. That truth spans ages. Do I find my identity in truth? Yes, sir I do. For truth is dear to the heart of my Savior, so how cannot it not be dear to my own heart? It is late for me again. I must sign off more quickly than I would have preferred. We will talk again. Deuteronomy 32:7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. |
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7 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | Aixen7z4 | 132408 | ||
And thank you for your kind offer of help. I trust it will be OK with you if I decline. There are many areas in which I need help. But another discussion of Reformed theology is not one of them. The idea of considering the traditions of men is already settled with me. Now, some men answer harshly, and I do my best to avoid that. The question: “Do you think you know everything?” is one I have heard before, and I am doing what I can here to forestall it. Let us just say I do not have a felt need for the traditions of men, and no felt need to discuss any of them. If it helps let me also say that I have read more books, done more analyses, written more papers, than I care now even to remember. Should I have studied the religions of the world? Should I have compared and contrasted the major denomination of Christendom? I do not know. Truly I have found that “Of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh” (Ecclesiastes 12:12). I have come to the conclusion that we are to “Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man”. Then you may ask why I visit this forum. Truly it is not to discuss the ideas of men or to learn from them. I am here to discover and to share ways to put the word of God into practice. My business is counseling, and I help people to do what the Bible says. My ministry is evangelism, and I seek in every way to preach the Gospel. At my age, that is about it for me. I seek to lay aside every weight so that I might run this race and finish it with joy, and theoretical discussions are, for me, a distraction. I learned some time ago that the ideas of men give rise to denominations and to division in the church, and that is not a good thing. They give rise to endless discussions with accompanying rancor and the result is further division. I have learned that I need to be one with every person who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. I think we need to rely on the word of God alone, no other books, and the Holy Spirit. I realize there are others who think differently and I think we should not discuss it. As you can imagine, I think we can very well fulfill Deuteronomy 32:7 today. The days of old, and the years of many generations are covered in the Bible. Our father may very well be Abraham or Moses or Samuel or David or even Paul. He is the one who said “Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you” (Philippians 4:9). As for the elders, the apostles will do. They have told us (Hebrews 2:3,4; I john 1:3; etc.). We have always had to choose which tradition we would follow (Matthew 15:1-6;Galatians 1:14; etc.). I hope you find this response to be soft and gentle and loving, and that you can respond in kind (Colossians 4:6). I hope you will understand if I decide to stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught by our Apostle and High Priest, and by his apostles. The help I need is in practicing what they taught. |
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8 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | DocTrinsograce | 132418 | ||
We should never give ground quickly or easily in any area of doctrine. That is, quite possibly, a more serious problem than the original error (James 1:8). You have focused on the phrase "the traditions of men" and used it to effectively negate anything that I might say. Of a truth, I am no more interested in embracing the traditions of men than you are, Nobel. Without knowing them, how do we recognize them? Without knowing them, how do we scrutinize them in the light of scripture? If we can't do the latter, how can we know not to jettison something inspired and committed to men by God? You are very kind and loving, sir. I appreciate that very much. Those virtues are well worth emulation. Furthermore, only the fool despises rebuke. So I have carefully weighed your thoughts. I will not discount every thing you say by labeling it and denying that any of it is of God -- doing that is not of the Spirit. I will continue to "test all things, and keep that which is good." While I "study to show myself approved." We are men, we operate in the world of ideas. Although it might sound spiritual to say that we can rise above such things, that is not very rational. Ideation is a way in which God has made us like unto Himself. Reason and knowledge are not to be scorned. God is, after all, eminently rational. I am grateful and praise His name that He has not left us with no other tool than the mind. We have the all sufficient Word, His Holy Spirit, and we are new creatures. Together these are more than adequate for the renewing of our minds. Thus, our great battle is to remove the lie, no matter how disguised, and replace it with the truth. Theology has a bad connotation to many modern people. Partly, I believe, because of some of the movements in the sixties and seventies. You might recall that there was much of the division and denominationalism that you spoke about during this time. These folks claimed they had found something better. Whole new non-denominational denominations were formed, and now have grown into some of the largest churches in the land. Sir, you state that you need help practicing what Christ and His apostles taught. Won't "He who spared not His only son, give us all things unto godliness?" He has empowered us with His Spirit and with truth. The Sermon on the Mount, for example, is entirely unsuitable for the world. It is not an evangelistic message, instead it describes the regenerate follower of Christ. Look at the Pauline Epistles. Lets take Ephesians as probably the simplest example. The last three chapters contain over thirty imperative statements. I used to despair over that, complaining, "Paul, how do you expect me to keep all these rules?" I had missed the point of the first three chapters. There is not a single imperative statement in the first three chapters. They are entirely theological. Consequently, as any good American would do, I thought, "Let me get past all this fluff to the brass tacks. I want the practical stuff." What I failed to understand was that theology (what we know and think of God) always comes before obedience (how we walk in His statutes). Almost all of the Pauline epistles are structured this way: theology then practice. You have chosen well in desiring to practice what the New Testament teaches. Christ defined the kind of love we were to have when He said, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them... loveth me." Note, however, that this was after His statement "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Our freedom to apply His teachings are rooted in knowing the truth. Sir, I understand that my message is odious to many. I call us all to a disciplined life of the pursuit of holiness and the embrace of sound doctrine. God is deserving of nothing less. He has equipped us with all that we need to live such lives. It is an antinomy that He has sanctified us and yet calls us to lives of greater sanctification. However, considering what He has done for us, can we offer Him anything less than our entire, strenuous, devotion? Our entire bodies, souls, and minds? In Him, Doc |
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9 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | kalos | 132428 | ||
Doc: You are so right when you say: '...theology (what we know and think of God) always comes before obedience (how we walk in His statutes).' As I've said before, it has to be doctrine first, practice second, and then behavior. Knowing what the Bible teaches is necessary to right behavior. What we believe most definitely affects how we live. Belief comes first and then behavior. WHAT, as well as Whom, we believe greatly impacts the way we live. Grace and shalom, Kalos |
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10 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | DocTrinsograce | 132488 | ||
Thank you, Kalos. A lot of error seems to stem from a too low view of God and/or a too high view of man. We also often greatly err when we do not fully recognize -- if that is possible -- the true holiness of God. The other side of that coin is to esteem the sinfulness of man too lightly. Although we know from scripture that these errors are rooted in the flesh, in modern parlance we think of these things as ideas. Regardless, if our knowledge is not rooted in the truth, then we will practice error, and live amiss. In Him, Doc PS Such a word of encouragement is very valuable to me at the moment. Thank you again. |
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11 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | kalos | 173578 | ||
The bad news: It seems that the content of this forum contains more error than the TBN television network. The good news: The content of this forum also contains more truth than TBN. Grace to you, Kalos |
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12 | Rowdy, Rowdy, are you sure? | 1 Tim 2:9 | Hank | 173582 | ||
Kalos, we of SBF must work hard at it to contain more error than TBN. That's a garguantuan accomplishment than which perhaps no Forum in the wide world can do half as well. But as for this Forum containing more truth than TBN, well that's a piece of cake. Even politicians and used car salesmen could make that claim. --Hank | ||||||