Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Whats up with Judgement, calvinists plz? | Rom 9:21 | MrHappyface | 61343 | ||
I am wondering if a calvinist could explain to me why God, if all things are ordained by him, would judge people? what I mean is, if God made us all, and God chose everything we would do, why did he give us the 'illusion' of freewill, and why would he judge us for things he made us do? I can understand it if I except God delegates Authority to man so that we may choose to love him, then I can see why all the suffering and death and pain are worth it to God, because some will "choose" to love him, But if in the end we cannot choose, why did he not simply make us perfect in the first place? God is outside of time, so to me words like foreordained, and foreknew, are meaningless in the context of God himself, though they obviously have meaning to man. |
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2 | Whats up with Judgement, calvinists plz? | Rom 9:21 | New Creature | 61366 | ||
Many will actually argue that they do not personally have a free will to choose anything. In this line of thinking ... Man becomes a puppet/or a robot and that "God forced them into becoming a Christian Without free will, many of Bible statements make no sense: 1. "Why do you call me Lord and don't do what I say" Luke 6:46 Why? God willed it that way! 2. "Whosoever believes shall be saved" John 3:16 (Not whosoever God makes a believer) 3. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17 4. John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 5. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. "God will not violate human freedom. He has created a race of people to make choices. God did not create fleshly robots or mechanical beings over which He has complete control. Why doesn’t God just make me good? The answer is: that wouldn’t be goodness, it would be slavery. And God isn’t interested in slaves but in sons and daughters. God will not overpower us into goodness; He can and does work through every possible means to get our attention to call us, to woo us and win us. But He will never ravish us or violate us as persons."(source unknown) "How can man be held accountable to God for his actions in judgment without freewill? Do those who die unbelivers get judged for something that they could not be responsible for? What kind of God would judge someone for his or her inability?"(unknown source) "What then, you ask, does free will do? I reply with brevity, it saves. Take away FREE WILL, and nothing will be left to be saved. Take away GRACE, and nothing will be left as the source of salvation. This work [of salvation] cannot be effected without two parties -- one, from whom it may come: the other, to whom or in whom it may be wrought. God is the author of salvation. Free will is only capable of being saved. No one, except God, is able to bestow salvation; and nothing, except free will, is capable of receiving it." Bernardus, De Libero Arbit. et Gratia. |
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3 | Whats up with Judgement, calvinists plz? | Rom 9:21 | JRdoc | 61385 | ||
Well, praise God we landed. I will need to make this 2 posts because of length. Now to the question: New Creature wrote: “Many will actually argue that they do not personally have a free will to choose anything…” Calvinists here to my knowledge are not arguing that man has no-will at all. Calvinists do not assert that God forces HIS will on any except to set him free from the slavery of sin that he is in which slavery is “death”. Do dead people raise themselves from death (Rom 6:4-5). The example I posted was VERY CLEAR on this issue (see ‘initial’ post Sovereignty and Free-Will). What the issue is – Is not is man has a will, but when is it used in the process of salvation. An easy way to look at this is how much does a child contribute to his own personal birth. The Mother and Father conceive a child and at an appointed time the child comes forth. In normal child birth the child contributes nothing to its conception and delivery. After it is born the Physician pats it to make it cry (confession—there is you activity, but not before). Amazing things about babies, they do not open their eyes until after they are delivered from the womb and initially they see everything upside down because the muscles in their eyes have not yet matured to the point of normal eye-site (the condition of saved Arminians—they still, because of immaturity in the Word of God look at everything from their perspective—upside down--and not in the normalcy of God’s ways and thoughts—Scripture). The normal process of salvation is as such: Effectual Calling - Divine Act Regeneration - Divine Act Repentance -Divine - Human Faith -Divine - Human Justification -Divine Sanctification -Divine Adoption -Divine Progressive Sanctification -Divine - Human Perseverance IN Holiness - Divine - Human Glorification -Divine --- YOU SAY: “Without free will, many of Bible statements make no sense: 1. "Why do you call me Lord and don't do what I say" Luke 6:46 Why? God willed it that way! 2. "Whosoever believes shall be saved" John 3:16 (Not whosoever God makes a believer) 3. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17 4. John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 5. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again, in “your examples” you assume free-will to be much more than what is taught in Scripture. 1. Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? You and others continue to insist to take verses out of context to prove your philosophy? You quote vs. 46. Where does it say that the individual CHOSE WHAT TYPE OF HEART HE HAD? (vs 45) The heart is what is given and Christ is explaining what comes out of each type! |
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4 | Whats up with Judgement, calvinists plz? | Rom 9:21 | New Creature | 61424 | ||
JRdoc: I pretty much agree with this post of yours. I don't find very much to dispute over what you posted. The only thing I might add is that when referring to either Calvinist's or Arminian's I wouldn't classify all Calvinist's into one group. Instead I would say there are Calvinists that disagree with Calvinists, just as there also are different camps within Arminianism. I have spoken to some Calvinist's that claim to be 4 or 3 point, rather than 5 point Calvinists' Some we call hyper-Calvinists, others we might classify as moderate. I think there also are hyper-Arminians and moderate ones as well. Finally I wouldn't call any Calvinist or Arminian as being immature in the word of God. It is before God they stand, it's not my job to judge either. Both are sncere in what they believe. I won't say they are sincerely wrong. While that may be the case, I pray as you do that both sides of the coin of truth may be shown to them. If all I ever saw was the heads side of a coin, then I wouldn't know the truth of there being a tails side to it also. Calvinist's and Arminian's use the same Bible and both can find Scripture to support what they believe. I have even read of those who were once Calvinist and after time spent in God's word, switched over to the Arminian camp. Likewise I have heard of some Arminian's who later switched over to the side of Calvinism. |
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