Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | Morant61 | 8880 | ||
Greetings Mel! Thanks for the input to the discussion! Allow me to briefly deal with the two passages you mention which deal with baptism (John 3:5 and Acts 2:38.) Then, I would like you to address two specific questions. As a preliminary, let me state once again that no one debates that baptism is important. It has been commanded by Christ for Christians. The only point being debated is whether or not baptism is essential for salvation. You, Sharp, and Ezekiel seem to be saying that baptism is essential to salvation - no baptism, no salvation. I, and the rest of the thread, are arguing that our salvation is not effected in any way by our baptism or lack thereof. With this is mind, let me address these two passages. 1) Acts 2:38: There are two points that I think argue against baptism being essential to salvation in this passage. a) There is a grammatical anomaly in this verse. The command to repent is a second person plural imperative - in other words a plural you. Unfortunately, there is no way in English to distinguish between a 2nd person plural and a 2nd person singular. To use the King James method of ‘you’ and ‘ye,’ the command here is ‘Repent Ye!’ The phrase ‘for the remission of your sins’ is also a 2nd person plural as indicated by both the definite article and the personal pronoun. So, obviously, the command to repent and the phrase concerning the forgiveness of sins belong together. However, the command to "be baptized" is a 3rd person singular imperative. This simply means that the phrase "for the remission of sins" does not go with the command to be baptized at all, rather it belongs with the command to repent. b) Secondly, the phrase "forgiveness of sins" is used four other times in Acts (5:31, 10:43, 13:38-39, and 26:18) and none of them mention baptism. If baptism is essential for salvation, why don’t all of these other verse include references to baptism? My answer is that there is no command in Scripture to be baptized for the remission of sins. The command in Acts 2:38 is a command to repent for the remission of sins, with a parenthetical statement thrown in that each one should then be baptized. 2) John 3:5: Concerning this passage, my first observation is that Christian baptism is not mentioned directly anywhere in this passage. In fact, it would be unusual for it to be mentioned, since Christian baptism hasn’t even be instituted at this point. Your assuming that "born of the water" means baptized. However, the context makes it much more likely that "born of the water" is a reference to natural birth in contrast to spiritual birth. Notice the flow of the passage. Jesus says in Jn. 3:3 that no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. In verse 4, Nicodemus immediately assumes that Jesus must means that we have to re-enter the womb and be physically born again. Verse 5 is Jesus’ attempt to correct Nicodemus’ false assumption. In it, He says that we must be born of water and of Spirit. Is Jesus talking about baptism when He says "born of water" or is He talking about natural birth. I believe the later. Why? Because in verse 6, Jesus directly contrasts physical birth and spiritual birth by stating that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." So, even if my interpretation of this passage is in error, you would have to assume that Jesus meant baptism when there is nothing in the context that even deals with baptism. Every text used in this thread to support the idea that baptism is essential to salvation has some serious difficulties attached to it. Furthermore, the concept itself goes against everything Scripture says about salvation being through faith alone! I have tried to answer your questions, and I will expand on my answers if you wish. Now, I would like you to answer two questions. 1) In Acts 10, Peter is preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius. As he was preaching, Acts 10:44 tells us that the Holy Spirit came upon all those who heard the message and they spoke in tongues, just as the disciples had in Acts 2. This is an important sign that God has extended salvation even to the Gentiles. Notice however what Peter says in v. 47, ‘‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." Were these people saved at this point? They had already been filled with the Holy Spirit! How could this be true if they were not saved? Yet, if baptism is essential to salvation, how could they have been saved without being baptized? 2) What about the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43)? Jesus told him that he would be with Him in paradise, today! Yet, he had never been baptized! Was he saved? I look forward to your response and I appreciate your kind spirit! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | sniper | 78006 | ||
Just a quick note on "faith alone". James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. I believe that this the only place in the Bible that "faith alone" is used. |
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3 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | Morant61 | 78016 | ||
Greetings Sniper! This topic has been dealt with many times, but allow me to touch upon it one more time! :-) There are many passage which explicitly teach that works do not and cannot save us. Rom. 4, Eph. 2:8-10, Gal. 2, and Rom. 9 are all examples. So, we have two choices concerning James 2:24. Either we can say that James is contradicting all of these other passages, or it doesn't mean what you think. I believe the later is true. The context of James 2 is quite clear. Some were 'saying' that they had faith, but not living it. James made the point that real faith is demonstratable and visible in our obedience. In fact, Paul made the same point in Eph. 2:8-10, good works are a result of salvation, but not the cause of it. So, what is James 2:24 saying? The word translated as 'justified' can also mean 'proven right' or 'demonstrated to be righteous'. Check out Rom. 3:4. Was God justified or was He proven right in His words? Rom. 4:2, 4:5, 5:1 all deny that we can be justified by works. The same word is used here. So, unless one wants to say that James 2:24 directly contradicts these other verses, the only possible answer is that James 2:24 is using the second meaning of the term. In other words, our faith is demonstrated by our works. The only possible way to harmonize these verses is quite clear - salvation produces good works, good works do not produce salvation. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | sniper | 78040 | ||
Tim, Obviously, you do not kmow what I think because I do not beleieve nor have I ever tried to support that good works are the cause of salvation. However, this does not mean that God does not require works in keeping with repentance. It also does not mean that God cannot require baptism for salvation. |
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5 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | Morant61 | 78054 | ||
Greetings Disciplerami! As I understand it my friend, 'works in keeping with repentance' done as a condition to receive salvation, are still just works! In my view, 'works in keeping with repentance' are done as a result of salvation, and are not necessary to receive salvation. I just don't see any way that you can make any kind of 'work' necessary for salvation, but then say that 'works' are not the cause of salvation. If they are 'necessary' for salvation, they are at least part of the cause of salvation. Yet, Scripture continually says, 'not by works' at all. This is where we differ on this issue. When I say that baptism is not necessary for salvation, I do not mean that we are not commanded to be baptized. I simply mean that I do not have to get baptized to be saved, but once I am saved, I am expected to obey Christ and be baptized. Have a great day my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | disciplerami | 78060 | ||
Hi Tim, How I wish there wasn't this difference between us. I believe that you have not yet grasped what I or the Bible are saying about the necessity of works. It's not that works 'earn' you anything: you can never do enough works to attain the state of righteousness. BUT works are 'in keeping' with Biblical, saving faith. John had people coming to him for baptism: immersion for the remission of sins. But he refused to baptized the 'brood of vipers'. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" He then said, "bring forth fruits in keeping with repentance." Hence, a working repentance, not just being sorry for past sins, was required before he would baptize them. Many people started asking what they needed to do and he told them. But Herod, in contrast, threw John into prison. Herod did not repent by putting away the unlaw marriage. I venture to say that none on this forum - save the infant baptizers - believe that baptism, in and of itself, can save. But the Bible clearly shows that Baptism is the place where God's grace saves. That is why there was such urgency to baptize in the early church (and still is today by those like myself). I'm glad that you teach the necessity of baptism. But baptism is commanded for a specific purpose and should be received with that purpose in mind. Thanks, Disciplerami |
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7 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | Morant61 | 78062 | ||
Greetings Disciplerami! How then would you explain the difference my friend? To me, anything that must be done to receive salvation is a work. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | arrow1 | 113735 | ||
you Must believe you Must repent and you Must have faith , by your own definition, those are all works | ||||||
9 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | Morant61 | 113736 | ||
Greetings Arrow1! No, I do not see faith or repentance as works. They are nothing more than a mental response to God's gift. They don't do anything in and of themselves. Baptism, on the other hand, is something that we do or have done to us. Allow me to illustrate! Someone offers you a check for 1 million dollars (sorry, but not me)! You accept it! Did you do something to earn it? No! Salvation is a free gift. There is nothing that we can or must do to earn it. We simply have to accept it, which is what faith is. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | arrow1 | 113754 | ||
Someone offers me a check for 1mil, says it is free, no strings attatched. The check is buried in the back yard 3 feet under the apple tree. If I go dig it up, did I earn it or is it still a free gift. I submit it is still free. Someone gives me 1mil for my birthday, I didn't earn it, however, I had to meet the condition to receive it, namely it was my birthday. Same with baptism, I repent and get baptized as a response to the Gospel, God freely gives me salvation, I simply met the condition to receive it. I know we're beating a dead horse, but that's how I see it. I do appreciate this forum, it is interesting and most everyone seems to be thoughtful and cordial. Thanks, arrow1 |
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11 | Faith plus Baptism or Faith alone? | Matt 7:13 | Morant61 | 113774 | ||
Greetings Arrow1! I appreciate your gentle spirit as well my friend! But, I guess we should leave the horse alone for awhile! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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