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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34636 | ||
Greetings Tim! I believe we have discussed alcohol in the Bible in the past, so I don't want to start that again! :-) But, I think you would be hard pressed to make the case that American culture in general is an alcohol condemning culture. There are very few denominations today which teach total abstinence. So, even the Christian culture is ambivalent concerning the issue. The non-Christian culture is very open and accepting of alcohol. I do agree though that drunkness should be called drunkness, not alcoholism. My only concern as a pastor is this: If one believes that drinking in moderation is okay, at what point does one cross the line? In other words, at what point is on drunk? Does God use Indiana State law? How do I explain as a pastor to someone in a congregation the point at which they are sinning? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34641 | ||
Hi Tim. Sorry about my reflection on American culture. Since we in South Africa generally only meet American missionaries we sometimes get a distorted view of American cultural standards. Since our previous discussion I have been on leave and I took that time to do further research into alcohol and specifically the Lord's Supper. In terms of the usage of the phrase "the fruit of the vine" I found Jewish references in the Mishna and Talmud that defined this phrase to mean wine either mixed with water or not. I found references to "mustum" being preserved by sealing in a jar and dropping down a well but further research showed that the same term in latin (mustum) was used in connection with an obviously intoxicating drink. I also checked up on the research done by Jim McGuiggan in his book 'The Bible, the saint and the liquor industry' and was apalled to discover some very bad exegesis when it comes to wine in the Bible. He proposes a 2 wine view and tries to say that whenever wine is spoken well of in Scripture it is grape juice and whenever it is condemned it is wine. Without going into an argument about alcohol per se, I am concerned about the actual meaning of the term "the fruit of the vine". When I first heard the claim that it was wine only (about 20 years ago) I rejected that claim but did no further study into the matter. However, when I decided to actually investigate this for myself I found that this might actually be the correct interpretation. The more I investigated the more convinced I became to the point that I am now convicted that we should be using wine for the Lord's Supper. Because of that I have got into trouble with my local congregation because I want to be able to take wine for the Lord's Supper as I believe Jesus commanded us. My strongest oponent tried to discredit my exegesis by asking people to study a book written by one of the prominent American missionaries in our area. Several of the members who read that book and then read my exegesis came and said that according to the rules of exegesis they had no doubt that we should be using wine. Since that has happened the man has now attacked the very book he recommended. I find this an alarming sign of insincerity. I am still searching for any evidence that the phrase was used generically in Jesus time. If I can find such a reference then I will no longer have a problem using grape juice instead. This is a matter of definition of terms rather than a defence of use of alcohol against abstinence. With regard to your question '... at what point does one cross the line' I think this is a very personal thing. As a minister or pastor it is probably very difficult to instill a concept of acceptable or unacceptable consumption. This is where cultural norms have an important influence. If I teach my children about responsible drinking in my home they learn from my example. I have "alcoholic" or drunkard in-laws so this problem is VERY close to home. If I drink at all, I have a very strict personal limit and I try always to eat while I drink. I find wine enhances a meal and relaxes me but I hate feeling any loss of control or dizziness. For that reason I never drink more than 1 or 2 glasses at a time and actually only drink 1 or 2 times a month. If I had to advise anyone I would let them know that drunkenness is a sin and let them determine for themselves where that point is. I would also recommend they stop well before that point if possible. I do know the difference between someone who has drunk moderately and someone who is drunk -- from personal observation. Oops, went further than I intended! :-) In His Service Tim Sheasby |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34642 | ||
Greetings Tim! I had forgotten that you were from South Africa! :-) It is great to be able to share with brothers and sisters from all over the world. If you have a copy of your study which can be e-mailed, I would like to read it. If you don't mind that is! You can send it to Morant62@hotmail.com. Concerning drunkness, shouldn't there be a more objective standard than just everyone deciding for themselves? Will God judge us for drunkness based upon what we thought it was or what He thought it was? Just curious! Your American Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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