Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34478 | ||
What is 'the fruit of the vine'? Most people in American protestant churches or in churches rooted in American Protestantism believe it is "any fruit of the vine" or that it is "grape juice". At first glance, the phrase could be taken to mean anything that originates in the vine. However, if we are to practice good principles of hermeneutics, we need to establish the scope of meaning (if any) as it was used in the first century. This has been discussed to some extent in the context of 1 Cor 11:17 ff. However, I have been doing some further study on this and have found that the more I study, the more evidence I find that it can only be wine and can never be grape juice. Have any of you got any evidence that contradicts this? I will be posting some more thorough notes in due course. | ||||||
2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Mommapbs | 34491 | ||
"The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine." Isaiah 25:6 Greetings Tim! This verse describes the welcome that God is preparing for those who will be eternal residents in His Kingdom. Could Jesus be referring to this event in Matthew 26:29? Hungry and thirsty! Mommapbs |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34630 | ||
Amen!!! I believe churches today have done what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for doing. In the 1800s the temperance movement started teaching that all alcohol was evil. I personally give them the benefit of the doubt here. I believe their intentions were good. Their reasoning may have been that since drunkenness was condemned by God then if you abstain from alcohol totally then there is no chance of ever becoming drunk. The result, however, is that instead of learning the biblical principle of moderation the church adopted the acetic principle of abstention. I read somewere that alcoholism statistics amongst people from alcohol drinking culture, like the Jews, French, Italians etc. is much lower than from cultures that condemn alcohol consumption (most of Protestant America). If we had a balenced view of alcohol and if we had been brought up in a culture that accepted alcohol consumption but still condemned drunkenness, we probably would have no problem with using wine for the Lord's supper. Alcoholics Anonymous has changed the biblical sin of drunkenness into a disease that is 'caught' from that evil alcohol. The man who first described alcoholism, Jelineck, said that alcoholism resulted from at least 14 years of alcohol ABUSE. Alcoholics are not born according to this evidence. They work very hard to get where they are. Let's go back to Bible definitions. My father in law is not an alcoholic -- he is a drunkard. Somehow being called an alcoholic has lost the stigma that being called a drunkard had. So we dilute the word of God. In His Service Tim Sheasby |
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4 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34636 | ||
Greetings Tim! I believe we have discussed alcohol in the Bible in the past, so I don't want to start that again! :-) But, I think you would be hard pressed to make the case that American culture in general is an alcohol condemning culture. There are very few denominations today which teach total abstinence. So, even the Christian culture is ambivalent concerning the issue. The non-Christian culture is very open and accepting of alcohol. I do agree though that drunkness should be called drunkness, not alcoholism. My only concern as a pastor is this: If one believes that drinking in moderation is okay, at what point does one cross the line? In other words, at what point is on drunk? Does God use Indiana State law? How do I explain as a pastor to someone in a congregation the point at which they are sinning? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34641 | ||
Hi Tim. Sorry about my reflection on American culture. Since we in South Africa generally only meet American missionaries we sometimes get a distorted view of American cultural standards. Since our previous discussion I have been on leave and I took that time to do further research into alcohol and specifically the Lord's Supper. In terms of the usage of the phrase "the fruit of the vine" I found Jewish references in the Mishna and Talmud that defined this phrase to mean wine either mixed with water or not. I found references to "mustum" being preserved by sealing in a jar and dropping down a well but further research showed that the same term in latin (mustum) was used in connection with an obviously intoxicating drink. I also checked up on the research done by Jim McGuiggan in his book 'The Bible, the saint and the liquor industry' and was apalled to discover some very bad exegesis when it comes to wine in the Bible. He proposes a 2 wine view and tries to say that whenever wine is spoken well of in Scripture it is grape juice and whenever it is condemned it is wine. Without going into an argument about alcohol per se, I am concerned about the actual meaning of the term "the fruit of the vine". When I first heard the claim that it was wine only (about 20 years ago) I rejected that claim but did no further study into the matter. However, when I decided to actually investigate this for myself I found that this might actually be the correct interpretation. The more I investigated the more convinced I became to the point that I am now convicted that we should be using wine for the Lord's Supper. Because of that I have got into trouble with my local congregation because I want to be able to take wine for the Lord's Supper as I believe Jesus commanded us. My strongest oponent tried to discredit my exegesis by asking people to study a book written by one of the prominent American missionaries in our area. Several of the members who read that book and then read my exegesis came and said that according to the rules of exegesis they had no doubt that we should be using wine. Since that has happened the man has now attacked the very book he recommended. I find this an alarming sign of insincerity. I am still searching for any evidence that the phrase was used generically in Jesus time. If I can find such a reference then I will no longer have a problem using grape juice instead. This is a matter of definition of terms rather than a defence of use of alcohol against abstinence. With regard to your question '... at what point does one cross the line' I think this is a very personal thing. As a minister or pastor it is probably very difficult to instill a concept of acceptable or unacceptable consumption. This is where cultural norms have an important influence. If I teach my children about responsible drinking in my home they learn from my example. I have "alcoholic" or drunkard in-laws so this problem is VERY close to home. If I drink at all, I have a very strict personal limit and I try always to eat while I drink. I find wine enhances a meal and relaxes me but I hate feeling any loss of control or dizziness. For that reason I never drink more than 1 or 2 glasses at a time and actually only drink 1 or 2 times a month. If I had to advise anyone I would let them know that drunkenness is a sin and let them determine for themselves where that point is. I would also recommend they stop well before that point if possible. I do know the difference between someone who has drunk moderately and someone who is drunk -- from personal observation. Oops, went further than I intended! :-) In His Service Tim Sheasby |
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6 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34642 | ||
Greetings Tim! I had forgotten that you were from South Africa! :-) It is great to be able to share with brothers and sisters from all over the world. If you have a copy of your study which can be e-mailed, I would like to read it. If you don't mind that is! You can send it to Morant62@hotmail.com. Concerning drunkness, shouldn't there be a more objective standard than just everyone deciding for themselves? Will God judge us for drunkness based upon what we thought it was or what He thought it was? Just curious! Your American Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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