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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34813 | ||
Greetings Joe! Just one quick question about Ps. 104:14-15. Is the passage refering to a fermented beverage or to the fruit of the vine? The word used in this verse can mean either. It seems that in the context that the latter would fit better. The entire passage is describing natural products like water, grass, herbs, and "wine". Notice how the NASB translate v. 14, "And wine which makes man’s heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil,..." It seems that based on this transation the "wine" is used to make the oil. A footnote in the KJV says that the Hebrew here literally reads, "to make his face shine with oil, or more than oil". So, it seems to me a stretch to make verse a reference to a fermented drink! Your Brother in Christ (either way), Tim Moran |
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2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 34829 | ||
Again, your Hebrew has me at a disadvantage. A shame that a linguist like myself hasn't got around to learning the Hebrew and Greek yet! In any case, what is the Hebrew word used here, and where else is it used to unquestionably refer to an unfermented drink? Also, we see wine associated with gladness in verses like these: "You have put gladness in my heart, More than when their grain and new wine abound." --Psalm 4:7 'Instead, there is gaiety and gladness, Killing of cattle and slaughtering of sheep, Eating of meat and drinking of wine: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we may die."' --Isaiah 22:13 "Ephraim will be like a mighty man, And their heart will be glad as if from wine; Indeed, their children will see it and be glad, Their heart will rejoice in the LORD." --Zechariah 10:7 What is the word used for "wine" here, and what is it about wine that makes these people so incredibly glad all the time? :) I don't think we have to MAKE the verse a reference to a fermented drink; I really have no other agenda here than to keep man's teachings from being forced onto the biblical text. If it is reasonable to say that the wine in the passages I have quoted could be fermented, the burden is on someone else to demonstrate that it is definitely NOT so. And again, I am sure that you understand my claim that there is no prohibition against a proper, contextual use of alcohol is in any way a license to sin by being a drunkard. I am not fighting for my right for my "three glasses a day." However, I do not see how the distinctly American prohibition on ANY alcohol use can be anything but a cultural more within many branches of evangelicalism here. --Joe! |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34857 | ||
Greetings Joe! If a word as more than one possible reasonable meaning, then why would those who say that it may refer to an unfermented substance be under more of a burden than those who assume that it refers to a fermented beverage? :-) This is my primary problem with the whole topic. We take one English word, which refers to an alcholic beverage, and say that all 15 words in Greek and Hebrew must mean the same thing! The word used is 'yayin' (03196). It is used 140 times in the Old Testament. One writer has estimated that it is used of a fermented substance about half the time, and not about half the time. Some examples where it used in contexts where it clearly cannot refer to alcohol are: Yayin: Is used in Jer. 40:10 to refer to the products of the harvest which are then to be placed in their vessels. Clearly, they could not be fermented until after they are placed in the vessels, they were freshly pressed. In Num. 6:4, the word refers to the vine itself. Notice the description of 'yayin' as including everything from the kernels to the husks. Is. 16:10 uses the word to refer to the juice in the press. These are just a few examples where the context clearly indicates that the word can refer to something other than alcohol. Believe me my friend, I am on no cursade to enforce one particular view. My primary concern is that we don't simply fall for the very large assumption that 15 different words always refer to alcohol. Concerning a prophibition against alcohol, is there any Biblical passage which commands us to drink? The assumption is made that since we are commanded to be drunkards that drinking in moderation is okay. However, there is no verse which specifically says that we should drink. Personally, I choose to not have anything to do with a substance that kills brain cells, causes one to lose control, is a toxin, and does absolutely nothing to enhance our service to or witness for Christ. If a brother or sister believes differently, that is between them and God. I just don't want to see those of us who have made the other decision to be classified as ignorant (not by you my friend). But, I have seen the comment many times, "Wine means wine", as if I were unaware of the 15 different words used in two separate languages which are translated by one English word! Well, I've got to get to bed by friend. I'll chat with you later. If you want look up more verses, use the Strong's # (03196) to look up the various ways in which this word is used. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 34873 | ||
Tim: You wrote: "If a word as more than one possible reasonable meaning, then why would those who say that it may refer to an unfermented substance be under more of a burden than those who assume that it refers to a fermented beverage? :-)" I didn't say that the burden of proof is on those who say it MAY refer to a non-alcoholic beverage, but rather on those who insist that it MUST refer to one. Secondly, while there may be a total of 15 words in the entire Bible which can be translated "wine," you have to admit that some of that is due to overlap between the two languages. How does the Septuagint translate the word "yayin" to Greek, for example? "Concerning a prophibition against alcohol, is there any Biblical passage which commands us to drink?" No, and I never said there was. "The assumption is made that since we are commanded to [not] be drunkards that drinking in moderation is okay." Well, the assumption I make is since there is no prohibition against drinking, and that it is seen as a practice among the people of God, and that Jesus consecrated wine for the communion and changed water into wina at Cana, that it is not expressly forbidden. "I just don't want to see those of us who have made the other decision to be classified as ignorant (not by you my friend)." My problem isn't with those who choose not to drink, nor those who say it is best for us not to drink, but rather with those who argue that GOD commanded us never to drink alcohol. I realize that there are very unwise situations for someone to drink, both for their own sakes and for others. And I am not arguing that one should see how close to the line that they can get to drunkenness without crossing over. My argument is that a glass of wine at a meal or partaking of communion wine is not a sin in itself. I will look up the word for "wine" in those other passages I cited before, and maybe we can pick up on this later. Maybe not, since I really didn't want to major on this... --Joe! |
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5 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34905 | ||
Greetings Joe! How does the LXX translate 'yayin'? I believe it always, or almost always, translates 'yayin' as 'oinos', which is the generic word in Greek. You wrote: "Well, the assumption I make is since there is no prohibition against drinking, and that it is seen as a practice among the people of God, and that Jesus consecrated wine for the communion and changed water into wina at Cana, that it is not expressly forbidden." The fact that there is no explicit prohibitation is why I don't get real dogmatic on this issue. As a pastor, when someone asks me about it, I lay out my case and ask them to pray about it. But it is worth noting for the record several points. 1) There is no explicit command either way. But, there are many passages, besides the drunkness ones, which paint a very negative picture of wine. And, there are groups of people in the Old Testament who were expressly forbidden to drink wine. Why? 2) That alcohol use was a practice among the early church is an assumption. I have often wondered why Paul had to command Timothy to just add a little wine to his water for medicinal purposes. Could it be that he was reluctant to use any wine at all? 3) Concerning the communion, there isn't a single reference to "wine" in any of the passages, at least not by name. The assumption is that "fruit of the vine" refers to "wine", but why didn't Jesus simply say "wine"? It sure would have saved us a lot of time! :-) 4) The wedding at Cana is an excellent case of a generic word. It simply could mean either, so I would be reluctant to appeal to this account either way. Thus, we are told not to be drunk, but drunkeness is never defined. We are never explicitly told to abstain totally, though some in the OT were. But, we are never explicitly told to use it either. And, the only assumed examples of its use in the NT are instances where generic terms are used which could go either way. This is why I don't get dogmatic either way. Well, I just got home from work and I'm heading to bed! I'll talk to you later my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 35122 | ||
Tim: You wrote: "1) There is no explicit command either way. But, there are many passages, besides the drunkness ones, which paint a very negative picture of wine. And, there are groups of people in the Old Testament who were expressly forbidden to drink wine. Why?" That is a good question, but also points to another one: why were only SOME (like the Nazirites described in Numbers 6) expressly forbidden to abstain from wine and everything associated with it? It is at its heart an argument from silence, I suppose, but it seems that this prohibition would be superfluous if it applied to all of God's covenant people. After all, there was no command given to the Nazirite to refrain from adultery or what to do on feast days or the Sabbath, because that had already been given in the Mosaic covenant. Therefore, the "total abstention" clause in the Nazirite vow would seem to be limited to the person in question, just like the prohibition on getting a haircut. I don't know why Timothy was reluctant to drink wine. Perhaps he was a fan of Pepsi. And Jesus could have saved a lot of us a lot of time on a lot of issues by saying things differently. One thing I wish he had expressly said would be, "Thou shalt (or shalt not) baptize infants of believers." However, who am I to question the wisdom of God the Son? Even if he had expressly spoken using the words "alcoholic (or non-alcoholic) beverage," I am sure that we the church would have found a way to still argue over it. :) --Joe! |
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7 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 35138 | ||
Greetings Joe! Well, if Timothy liked Pepsi, then he was my kind of guy! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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