Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | EdB | 34835 | ||
Joe I respond in disregard of my better judgement. You accuse me of switching subjects to prove a point? No one has ever said there wasn't intoxicating liquids at the time of Christ. My point is that taking grapes and crushing them will not on their own turn into high test alcohol you are promoting, that is fact whether you or anyone else wants to admit that. I'm also saying the technology of the time did not exist that would allow grapes to naturally ferment without going bad. Fermentation today is done in a very controlled environment, and for a very good reason. Just a few spores will contaminate the mix. Everything is sterilized and washed and rewashed. Distilled water is used, specialized and developed yeast are added. Many mixing rooms are entered through air locks, the workers wear sterile clothing and rubber gloves. The gases are expelled through water locks so air will not be able to contaminate the mix. Even then a mix goes bad from time to time. Using the argument that Jews did this intentionally to preserve the fruit of the vine is without basis, and simply man’s justification for a fact that is not true. The fact are even if they could make high test alcohol which they couldn’t without the right preservatives or very controlled conditions it would continue to turn to vinegar in a short period of time. Ask any wine connoisseur that has kept a bottle of vintage only to find they have been keeping vinegar. That stands whether you agree of not. To preserve the wine for any length of time the Jews dehydrated the juice and made a thick paste or carried the process even further and created a dry film much like fruit roll ups of today. Alcohol is considered a toxin, and you want me to furnish proof it isn’t good for the body. Look up the definition of toxin. Alcohol is also a control substance, I wonder why? To make a comparison between food and alcohol is like comparing steak and arsenic, surely you don’t think that is very convincing. As for foreign countries believe me every argument you hold for alcoholic wine can easily be down played by that example. Drink the wine of the common Mediterranean family and I can assure you will have case of what is common called travelers malady in other words you won’t be needing exlax. Yet that is a primary point of your argument for having alcoholic wine killing all the bugs. Sorry it doesn’t fly. Does the church and its rules restrain? Yes! In fact I think that is what it is called to do. Be the salt of the world. I would think we would be abdicating our role to do anything less. Something you may want to ponder. Yes you are naive in the fact you think that you can use your God given abilities of debate to manipulate common sense or change fact. I hate Pharisaic legalism as much if not more than you. But I see no logical reason to throw gas onto a fire, especially when the facts don't support the cause. You say Jesus consecrated the use of alcoholic wine? Would you show me where, proving without a shadow of doubt and without question that he was in fact talking about alcoholic wine. I don’t think you can. Therefore why promote alcohol by continuing this thread. Is it to prove you have liberty? Yes you have! Now get on with it. Is it to convince me when there is absolutely no need I should drink wine? Is it to convince me something classified as a toxin and a controlled substance is good? Is it to convince me it is God’s highest and best for a Christian to drink alcohol? My point is when there is so much to lose and so little to gain what your point for supporting alcohol in the Bible? I would say to Tim I have nothing to discuss with you. Anyone that feels an obligation of instructing your child in the proper way to imbibe is to my point of view beyond any reasonable discussion. I stand in shock of a Christian of saying I’m teaching my kid how to drink. EdB |
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2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 34858 | ||
"You accuse me of switching subjects to prove a point? No one has ever said there wasn't intoxicating liquids at the time of Christ." That wasn't where I pointed out taht you were switching arguments. Go back and read my last post. I am confused, however. If natural fermentation was as impossible as you say it was, where did they get intoxicating beverages? I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I honestly do not get how you can come to this conclusion if fermentation didn't work back then. "I'm also saying the technology of the time did not exist that would allow grapes to naturally ferment without going bad." So HOW did people get drunk? If natural fermentation is so impossible, how did anyone ever get drunk? "To make a comparison between food and alcohol is like comparing steak and arsenic, surely you don’t think that is very convincing." No, I don't find that very convincing at all. :) "Does the church and its rules restrain? Yes! In fact I think that is what it is called to do. Be the salt of the world. I would think we would be abdicating our role to do anything less. Something you may want to ponder." If the rules of the church go beyond the moral law of God, then what we do have indeed is legalism. It is God's law that functions properly as a restrainer, not the additional "house rules" that a congregation or a denomination places on its membership. --Joe! |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | EdB | 34879 | ||
Joe Here is how we can settle this since you simply refuse to believe me. Take some grapes smash them into a glass. Cover the glass tightly with a plastic wrap. Let the glass sit on the window sill for a week or two. Then filter the contents through a linen cloth and drink the results. Prove me wrong brother! Before you drink it take a wine makers specific gravity hydrometer and let me know the alcoholic content. This wouldn't truly be a fair test since everything is slanted in your favor. First you would probably use a glass washed with a bacteria killing dish washing detergent. Secondly the glass is a smooth texture that is easily cleaned. Thirdly you will be able to make the glass air tight which was virtually impossible at the time of Christ. Fourthly the linen cloth you will strain the liquid through is probably a finer weave than obtainable at the time of Christ, thus you probably won’t have to digest any big lumps. But that is okay I'll take the chance let me know how it tastes. Again I never said there wasn’t alcoholic wine at the time of Christ. The point I’m making is the common drink of the fruit of the vine of the time wasn’t alcoholic by our standards. Why is that so hard to understand? The argument that this was a way for the Jews to preserve the wine is simply without foundation. Again they dehydrated the juice and either dealt with a paste, samples have been found and examined or they spread it upon a flat surface and made what we would call fruit rollups. Both were then constituted when they were ready to serve their wine. Try the test and let me know how you make out! Oh by the way when you drink the brew you might want to have someone that can drive handy since I think you will want to take a trip for medical assistance. On second thought Joe please don't do this, it will make you sick. Rather than make you sick brother I will yield. You win! I'm sorry I ever questioned you. I should have known you would know far more about wine than one that made it for years. Be blessed and be a blessing. EdB |
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