Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 34683 | ||
Ed: "Would God want to partake of something that has proven to harm the body? Would the Holy Spirit lead us to something detrimental to our well being? Does God or Jesus receive any glory by us partaking?" Yes, bad question, and yes. God receives the glory when we partake of the wine of communion. Until the temperance movement of the 19th century got its claws into the sacrament, wine was used almost exclusively since the first century. And God indeed receives the glory when it is administered rightly. Wine is only detrimental to our well-being when it is used in excess. The same can be said of food. The sin in Scripture is not alcohol use, but alcohol abuse. Might I suggest that our views are a little bit colored by our culture? In Mediterranean countries even today, wine is used as a common beverage just about every day in every family that can afford it. Yes, there are alcoholics there, but there are plenty of people who still partake of wine responsibly. Again, abuse is the sin, not use. Jesus drank wine. Jesus changed water into wine. It was NOT unfermented grape juice. As one of my favorite writers, Douglas Wilson, put it, to claim that the first-century beverage of the Lord's Table was grape juice is as silly as saying that Paul wore a necktie when he preached. You write: "Help me understand why it is so important that everyone be convinced that the wine of the Bible was alcoholic..." Because it is the truth. What amazes me is the Herculean attempts to make it seem as if it weren't fermented. Why is it so important that everyone be convinced that the wine of the Bible WASN'T alcoholic? Now let's be clear: I am not saying that everyone MUST drink alcohol. I rarely drink at all myself. I also acknowledge that there are times when it would be detrimental to drink (not for myself, but for the conscience of another). However, it is an extra-biblical, legalistic sin to forbid the drinking of wine; and I would prefer to use wine in communion, simply because it is what Christ consecrated for the celebration. "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." --1 Corinthians 10:31 --Joe! |
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2 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | EdB | 34698 | ||
Joe Are you saying by this "God receives the glory when we partake of the wine of communion. Until the temperance movement of the 19th century got its claws into the sacrament, wine was used almost exclusively since the first century. And God indeed receives the glory when it is administered rightly." That because we don't use alcoholic wine God receives no glory in communion? And that communion without alcohol is not administer rightly? You also said “Wine is only detrimental to our well-being when it is used in excess. The same can be said of food. The sin in Scripture is not alcohol use, but alcohol abuse. “ Yet science has proven even a small amounts of alcohol has negative effects on our body. While food can cause us problems, food has not been proven to alter our body chemistry to make itself addictive. You also said, “Jesus drank wine. Jesus changed water into wine. It was NOT unfermented grape juice. As one of my favorite writers, Douglas Wilson, put it, to claim that the first-century beverage of the Lord's Table was grape juice is as silly as saying that Paul wore a necktie when he preached.” If the Jew was so particular to insure all forms of leaven was removed from even the house during Passover why do we want to suggest they brought leaven in with the wine? You asked, “Because it is the truth. What amazes me is the Herculean attempts to make it seem as if it weren't fermented. Why is it so important that everyone be convinced that the wine of the Bible WASN'T alcoholic? “ Because it serves as a detriment for some from even being tempted to try a little. As Paul said if it might make your brother stumble stay away from it. You went on and said, “Now let's be clear: I am not saying that everyone MUST drink alcohol. I rarely drink at all myself. I also acknowledge that there are times when it would be detrimental to drink (not for myself, but for the conscience of another). However, it is an extra-biblical, legalistic sin to forbid the drinking of wine; and I would prefer to use wine in communion, simply because it is what Christ consecrated for the celebration.” Personally I would be more convince your not trying to self justify yourself if you said you never drink. I know personally about alcohol and I can say with no hesitation life is better without it than with it. Again I have had to pray over broken and dead bodies killed by alcohol, I have had to minister to men and women ruined by alcohol. I have had to hold children and tell them God loves them after their lives, home and families were wreaked by alcohol. To me there is no good in alcohol, no none. If you want to argue Jesus made alcohol, understand you may be providing just the argument someone without your will power is looking for to get involved with alcohol. Personally I want no part of that involvement. Sorry I just can’t buy your argument. I see no good in alcohol as found in wine. EdB |
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3 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Reformer Joe | 34758 | ||
Ed: I did not intend to raise a rallying cry for wine use, since I think that there are much more serious issues than this that the church is dealing with these days. Just to comment briefly on a few items... "That because we don't use alcoholic wine God receives no glory in communion? And that communion without alcohol is not administer rightly?" My church uses grape juice, and God is glorified. However, I do hold a stricter view than some that the Son of God consecrated bread and wine for the Lord's Supper, so that is really the right way to do it. After all, if we can use ANYTHING, why not pass out little peanut butter sandwiches and shots of Pepsi? I don't think that whether we use wine or grape juice is something to wage theological war over, but I do hold that wine is best. You wrote: "Yet science has proven even a small amounts of alcohol has negative effects on our body. While food can cause us problems, food has not been proven to alter our body chemistry to make itself addictive." Actually, science has shown just the opposite regarding alcohol in moderation (aids in breaking down LDL cholesterol, for example). As for food, the people who live the longest are most often vegetarians, because eating meat actually contributes to shortening the life span of human beings as well. So in the long run, eating the flesh of other creatures is detrimental to our health as well. In addition, where is the evidence that our body chemistry is actually altered by regular yet moderate alcohol use (or even frequent and immoderate alcohol use)? We are not talking about PCP or crack here. I would like to see some documentation to back up the *biochemical* addiction that comes from alcohol. You wrote: "If the Jew was so particular to insure all forms of leaven was removed from even the house during Passover why do we want to suggest they brought leaven in with the wine?" As was pointed out in another post, the alcohol during fermentation actually kills the yeast. I am sorry, but it really isn't even a reasonable argument that wine was not a staple drink in 1st-century Judea just as it is all around the Mediterranean today. That fact is that people drank wine then, at weddings and at dinner. Go to any European country, and you will see alcoholic beverages as a regular, non-controversial aspect of daily life. If you lived 300 years ago, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place at all. Also, there is no question that God made wine. That is clearly stated in Psalm 104:14-15. To deny that God made wine is to deny the biblical account. The tragedies that you mention in your post are not the result of God making wine, but man's abuse of God's gifts (as usual). You write: "If you want to argue Jesus made alcohol, understand you may be providing just the argument someone without your will power is looking for to get involved with alcohol. Personally I want no part of that involvement." Well, that is your right, but again you are saying that by speaking the truth that I would be leading someone into sin. That is not the least bit logical, Ed. Your whole posts smacks of implying, "If we say that God considers alcohol in moderation to be okay (even if it is true), the results of stating such a thing would be unthinkable." I must confess that I do not see a bunch of alcoholics waiting in the wings to embark on their drunkenness, stopped only by their church's prohibition on that first fatal drink. Lastly, you wrote: "Personally I would be more convince your not trying to self justify yourself if you said you never drink." I am not trying to justify anything, Ed. Please refrain from the ad hominem stuff and lets just stick to what Scripture says or does not say rather than trying to discover my "hidden motivation" for wanting so desperately for you all to be my co-dependents. :) --Joe! |
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4 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | EdB | 34773 | ||
Joe your right if this discussion was going on 300 years ago there wouldn't be much to discuss. The wine of the time was less than 1 to 2 percent alcohol and was no comparison to what we call wine today. Grapes simply will not ferment into high alcoholic content wine without careful sterilization to kill off the yeast that make vinegar, and without sugar to feed the micro organisms that digest it and excrete waste. Your point is flawed if the alcohol killed the yeast therefore making wine permissible then baking would accomplish the same thing which should have made the leaven bread permissible. As for not being responsible for the consequences of speaking the truth your right, however the wine spoken of in the Bible is far removed from what we call wine today. Presenting them as being the same is simply not being truthful, and in there lies the problem. As for your motive for supporting wine, excuse me if you think I hunt for a hidden motive enabling us all to be your co-dependant. First what would make you think I would want to be your co anything. Secondly I see no reason for anyone to defend alcohol, short of trying to justify their own usage. As far as people waiting in the wings waiting for a go ahead to use alcohol. Surely you have dealt with an alcoholic, one married to a Christian. Yes if that alcoholic stumbled upon this thread you can be sure they would use it in their defense against their Christian spouse. If you doubt that then you are very naïve. Again I ask why do want to defend something that has brought so much destruction into this world, to try to justify its use? Your points are founded in error and I believe could be used by someone to justify their usage of alcohol. I see this thread having the potential of causing a brother to stumble even if you don’t and therefore I withdraw from any further discussion. EdB |
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5 | What is 'the fruit of the vine'? | Matt 26:29 | Tim Sheasby | 34786 | ||
The wine of their day was, according to my research, very strong -- well into the high teens percentage wise and possibly higher. My friend, Evelyn Mundell, wrote to a rabbinic professor at one of the universities in Israel and was told that indeed the wine of Jesus time was in this 16-18 percent range. Although YOU have not managed to do this does not in ANY way prove it was not done. Wine making was a highly developed skill in Jesus time to the point that by Jewish oral tradition (Mishna and Talmud) a wine merchant had to be able to guarantee his wine would not go off. Furthermore, if their wine was only 1 or 2 percent, as you maintain, it would have been impossible for them to get drunk on it at all. I simply want to know what Jesus had in his cup. My evidence shows it was a naturally fermented wine. The wines of the time were indeed intoxicating and that is why God laid down laws concerning abuse of wine and other strong drinks. Let's just use for the Lord's Supper what the Lord used. Who gave us the right to change it? In His Service Tim Sheasby |
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6 | Is there a command to use wine? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34805 | ||
Greetings Tim! I was thinking about this after we posted to one another the other day and I question came into my mind. Where does the Bible command anyone to use wine during the Lord's Supper? There are passages which talk about a cup, or the fruit of the vine, but there aren't any passage relating to the Lord's Supper which use any word for "wine". Further, even if we are to use it for the Lord's Supper, where is there a Scripture verse which either commands or allows us to use wine for other occasions - like at home? Just a thought! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | Is there a command to use wine? | Matt 26:29 | heisthe1 | 34809 | ||
I'm still looking for the word grape juice in the bible, the fruit of vine is wine. yeah, yeah I heard all that logic, but how can you put new grape juice in old grape skins? I know this might ruffle someones feathers, but the fruit is WINE. Grape juice is a form of our blood, it has no effect, wine is the form of Jesus blood, it has power. But her comes wisdom, giving the now day abuse of alcohol do we temp the hand of fate! |
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8 | Is there a command to use wine? | Matt 26:29 | Morant61 | 34814 | ||
Greetings Heisthe1! Thanks for your response! I'm going to repost my previous word study on this issue. People don't seem to realize that there are about 15 different words in the Bible which are translated as 'wine'. Not one! Not even two! Some of these words only have one meaning! Some of these words have several meanings! I don't mind people having different opinions than mine on this issue, but I do wish that everyone who comments on this issue would first do the word studies. So, here we go: ************************************************ Old Testament Words 1) yayin (03196): This is the most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 140 times. It can refer to either a fermented or unfermented beverage. One example of a fermented beverage would be Gen. 9:21, where Noah became drunk. However, Jer. 40:10 uses this word to refer to the harvest of grapes, which is to be stored. One scholar, Dr. Robert Teachout, estimates that the word is used 71 times to refer to an unfermented juice and 70 times as a fermented beverage. 2) tiyrowsh (08492): This is the second most common word in the Old Testament. It is used 38 times. It always refers to a fresh pressed juice, with one possible exception. 3) shekar (07941): This word is used 23 times in the Old Testament. It seems to always refer to a fermented drink and it only used in two ways. The first is in condemnations and the second is in drink offerings (poured on the offering). 4) yeqeb (03342): This word is used 16 times and always refers to unfermented wine. It usually refers to the presses themselves or the fresh product of the presses. 5) Õashiyshah (0809): This word is used only 4 times. It is always translated by the KJV as a "flagon of wine." However, more modern translations translate it as "a raisin cake." Thus, it would refer to grapes themselves, not a beverage. 6) chamar (02562): This word is only used 6 times in the Old Testament. It is actually an Aramaic word. The context makes it difficult to decide how it is used. It seems to be used in both ways. It’s 2 occurances in Ezra probably refer to unfermented wine, while it’s 4 occurances in Daniel probably refer to fermented. 7) gath (01660): This word is only used 5 times. It always refers to the press itself. 8) mamcak (04469): Only used twice. Seems to always refer to a fermented drink. 9) cobeÕ (05435): Only used three times. Seems to refer to a fermented drink, but one which is soured or diluted. 10) chemer (02561): Only used twice. Always refers to unfermented fresh juice. 11) aciyc (06071): This word is used five times. It seems to refer to an unfermented sweetened or spiced drink, with one possible exception. New Testament Words 1) oinos (3631): This word is used 33 times in the New Testament. It is comparable to ‘yayin’ in that it can refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. The prime example being Mt. 9:17, where the fresh new wine is to be put into a new bottle to keep it from fermenting. 2) gleukos (1098): This word is only used in Acts 2:13. Some have said that since the crowd was accusing them of being drunk that this had to be a fermented wine. However, the crowd was mocking them and the word usually refers to a fresh pressed juice. It could have been that they had a reputation for only drink fresh pressed juice and the crowd was making fun of them for it. 3) paroinos (3943): This word is only used twice and both times in a prohibition against drinking. It most likely refers to a fermented beverage. 4) oinophlugia (3632): This word is only used in 1 Peter 4:3 and refers to an excess of wine that some of engaged in in their past lives as unbelievers. It most likely refers to fermented wine. Conclusion: It simply is not true that "wine" always refers to an alcoholic beverage. It can refer to grapes. It can refer to fresh juice. It can refer to strong drink. It has a wide range of meanings. There only a couple of things that we are sure about. 1) It is not spoken of in a positive light in Scripture. 2) Priests, Kings, and Nazarites were forbidden to drink it. 3) It is described in Scripture as a destroyer. 4) It has destroyed countless lives throughout history. 5) Scripture clearly forbids drunkenness. 6) No one knows how to define drunkenness. 7) It causes people to lose self-control, not become more Christ-like. In light of this evidence, I have chosen not to drink any alcohol whatsoever. I am not on a crusade to promote my position. However, I do get irritated at so many scholars who fail to do their homework and just assume that the word "wine" meant then what it means now! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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