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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | 70A.D. or not? | Matt 16:28 | jonp | 183906 | ||
Hi, While I can fully agree that Jesus came in judgement on Jerusalem in 70 AD just as He came in power at Pentecost and in what followed I note that no one has mentioned what Luke says. There the position is expressed with total clarity. First the destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 21.21-24. Then the scattering of the Jews as they are led captive among all nations (Luke 21.24). Then the treading down of Jerusalem during the times of the Gentiles (Luke 21.24). Then the cosmic effects and men fainting for fear at what is to come (Luke 21.25-26). And then the Son of Man will come in power and great glory (Luke 21.27). I fail to see in this how His coming in glory can indicate the destruction of Jerusalem as important events are to take place between them. The 'these things' (which are to happen in that generation) are the indicators of the coming time of redemption, not the time of redemption itself (Luke 21.28), which Jesus did not know (Mark 13.32). They are the leaves that indicate that the Kingly Rule of God is near (Luke 21.29), not the actual coming of the Kingly Rule of God in His coming. There is no question therefore of unfulfilled prophecy. I do not wish to prolong this subject which has been well aired. But it important that we take all Scriptures into account. Perhaps you could be kind enough to explain what you think Luke meant, if he did not mean what he said. All best wishes jonp |
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2 | 70A.D. or not? | Matt 16:28 | Tomret | 183945 | ||
Hi jonp, I'll be glad to give it a shot. I'm confident Luke's words are are divinely true. Our task is to discern that truth from our English translation. I think it highly probable the person that coined the phrase "lost in the translation" was a Bible student. Even if we were fluent in Greek there would still be difficulties. Remember a few decades ago when all of a sudden "bad" meant good? Fortunately, that withered away. Luke 21:7; And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? In verse 8-17 He explains the things that will happen and the persecutions they will endure during the time period "these things" come to pass. In verses 18 and 19 He gives them assurances. Then in verse 20 He gives them the sign they had asked for: "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." (nigh: eggizo; to bring near, to join one thing to another, to draw or come near to, to approach). Verse 21, they're told that when they see this sign they must flee to the mountains, etc.Verse 22; Jesus affirms these coming days to be the judgement. "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written (grapho; writing in general but also used of those things which stand written in the sacred books of the OT) may be fulfilled." Verse 23 notes how especially hard it will be for pregnant women. The distress and wrath will not be on every person on the planet (people: laos; a people, people group, tribe, nation, all those who are of the same stock and language). Verse 24, 25, 26: Jesus continues His prophesy to the disciples. 24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Verse 25 Could this refer to astrological signs perhaps? "Distress of nations:" (ethnos; a tribe, nation, people group, in the OT foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians). Although the war was local to Judea and especially Jerusalem, I beleive this refers to great distress in all the surrounding nations in the years immediately prior to the start of the war. Verse 26 continues describing this horrid anticipation. From the time Jesus spoke until His coming things went from bad to worse in an exponential manner. To the beleivers it had to be frightening but imaginine the unbeleivers absolute horror. Josephus describes this period with unbelievable horror. Verse 27:"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." I'm not sure I understand your comment on this verse. If you are saying His coming in glory at Pentecost and in judgement of Jerusalem are separate events, I completely agree. I see this coming in glory as a separate event. The word for glory (doxa) has many meanings depending on context. The one applicable here would seem to be; a thing belonging to Christ, the kingly majesty of the Messiah, the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ. This verse and similar ones are cited as a "proof " that Jesus did not come in 70AD because there's no record that He was seen. This verse does indeed seem to say He would be seen. It could argued, if they saw Him would they recognize Him? Abscent for 3 days, His disciples failed to recognize Him after His ressurection. But, I beleive examining Rev. 1:7 provides a better explanation. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Eye: Ophthalmos; the eye, metaphorically the eyes of the mind, the faculty of knowing.) (See: Optanomai; to look at, behold.) So far this allows for the mind's eye to see Him, to understand He is coming in judgement. (Continued in next post) |
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3 | 70A.D. or not? | Matt 16:28 | Tomret | 183947 | ||
( continued) But here is the kicker. How many times I've looked at the definition of cloud without seeing it's significance! (Nephele; a cloud, used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness.) As the cloud led the Israelites they never literally saw God, but their mind's eye perceived and "saw" His presence. Nephele is the only word used for cloud in the NT. When used in describing Jesus coming there was no concern about whether it was about to rain, so I beleive this must be the same cloud as in Exodus. As Jesus and the Father are one it would seem most likely that this judgement would be conducted in the same manner as all the prior ones. I beleive those present at the 2nd coming would no more literally see God than those in the Exodus. Do you see what I'm saying? (Pardon the pun. I couldn't resist). I beleive verse 28 literally refers to first the risen dead then the rest of the saints being changed and taken up to meet the Lord. Verses 29-31: He compares the truth of all that He has said to a constantly recurring natural event, a truth of narure. In the modern vernacular we might say. " You can count on all that I have said as surely as you can count on the sun rising tomorrow. You can take it to the bank!" Notice the end of 31, "at hand": (eggus; of time, of times imminent and soon to come pass.) Then verse 32 while not specifying the day or hour, limits it to the generation of those to whom He is speaking. "Verily (Amen; verily, amen; at the beginning of a discourse - surely, truly, of a truth; at the end - so it is, so be it, may it be fulfilled.) I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Verily in this verse applies to the following verses indicating they are of special importance. Hope this has been helpful, Tom |
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