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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Still not convinced preterism is false | Matt 16:28 | jonp | 183757 | ||
Hi You may believe that Revelation is all chronological, but it does not say so. In fact 6.12-14 if taken literally must mean that the second coming has happened and that there can be no millennium after that as there will be no world. If the stars have fallen to earth (just one would devastate the earth) and the sky has vanished like a scroll and all the mountains and islands have removed from their place humanity could not possibly survive. The fact is that there are a number of visions in Revelation each leading up to the time of the second coming e.g. to 6.12-17 which refers to the second coming; to 14.14-20 which refers to the second coming; to 19.11-21; to 20.11-15 to take four clear examples. It is clear that you actually know little about the use of numbers in the ancient world. It is my specialist field. Most military leaders could not count. They relied on a few experts. They mainly counted their soldiers by the numbers of military units. But a century under a centurion might only contain sixty soldiers. But they would still count it as a century. Weavers and herders would be unlikely to be able to count beyond say twenty, and many not even as many as that (they had not been to school) and they did not need to. The herder knew all his animals and could tell whether there was a gap. Numbers were used roughly. Few people could count very far, beyond say ten or twenty. Thus the third day meant the same as three days and three nights, and so on. Nor were years in Palestine counted on the basis of orbits round the sun. They were based on twelve moon periods, with every now and then a third month introduced in order to keep the seasons in tune. So, no, speaking of 1000 years as a round number is not making it symbolical. It is looking at numbers as they were used in those days. This is an historical fact not a matter of interpretation (or indeed of argument. It is so). You have not explained how it is that chapter 20 repeats all the events that have happened previously. It is history repeating itself gone too far. It really is not good enough to quote some verses and say - 'Look they say what I said'. The problem is that large numbers of evangelical Christians do not agree with you. And anyway no one takes the whole Bible absolutely literally, not even you. Do you believe that we have to hate fathers and mothers. Do you cut your hand off when it sins? Of course not. But you would have to if you took the Bible literally. So we all have to judge when to take something literally and when not. And no, one questionable passage is not sufficient to demonstrate such an important doctrine. If it was not important enough for Paul and Jesus to mention it is highly questionable. You cannot really sensibly avoid the fact. And if we decide to rely on the fact that Jesus and Paul would have taught such an important doctrine if it was true I suggest that we are taking a very sensible position. A chapter from a book which clearly contains much symbol cannot overturn that. Best wishes Peter |
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2 | Still not convinced preterism is false | Matt 16:28 | mark d seyler | 183759 | ||
There's a lot here, so I won't try to address it all. But here are some points to consider. There are many timing words and phrases used in the Revelation, "and after this. . .", "After these things. . ." and such. I think it is a mistake to overlook the significance of those timing cues. "Stars" are used in the Bible of more than just the celestial lights in the sky. Rev. 1:20, and apparently 9:1 use star for angels, or messengers. Considering the earth is prophesied to remain forever, we need to be certain we can show from Scripture which meaning of "star" is being used here, the celestial burning ball of gas, angel/messenger, or something else. In the opening of the sixth seal, the sky is "parted", the mountains and islands are not "removed", they are "moved". I would like to suggest that we stick to what is provable from the text, when we take it literally - seriously - to determine what God intends to say through it. Should I allow for the sake of argument that none in the ancient world could count, would that mean that God couldn't count? What can be demonstrated from the Bible itself about how numbers are used in Scripture, and particularly concerning prophecy. What about the 70 years of captivity? Daniel seemed to think that they were 70 actual years, and he seemed to be able to know when they were close to ending. I do not believe that Rev. 20 simply repeats all the chapters that have preceded it. If that is your assertion, it is up to you to substantiate it. By "taking a passage literally", I do not mean that we are to think that "God is a bird", or that none of us should have hands. We simply need to demonstrate from the text what God intends us to know, and accept that as the actual meaning of the passage. As with most matters of prophecy, there are large groups of people who will all disagree with each other, but we know that truth is not proven by head count. But as I am looking over this thread, its already rather lengthy, and I don't see the benefit of adding to it our continuing dispute, so I will bow out at this point. Should you desire the last word on any of these things I will understand. God bless! Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Still not convinced preterism is false | Matt 16:28 | jonp | 183761 | ||
Hi Mark Thank you for your gracious permission for me to reply just once more. I will do so mainly to avoid misunderstanding. I did not say that no one could count in the 1st century, only that counting beyond ten or twenty and calculating mathematically was beyond the vast majority, and with many their limitation would be counting to three. There was little education available except for the wealthy and little reason to count and the synagogue schools were concerned with teaching people to read so that they could understand the Law, not with mathematics. Of course some were trained in numeracy, but they would be a comparatively small minority. Tradesmen would use tally sticks, and when they wanted to make an order they sent along sufficient tally sticks to indicate what they wanted. They did not need to use numbers. And so on. You tell me that the stars falling from heaven are really angels. Now it is true that there are places where it is made quite clear in the context that stars refer to angels. But not in a context like this one where all the references are to natural phenomena. In interpretation consistency is required. And there is no need to introduce angels here. So you see here it is I who am literal and you resort to symbolism, and may I gently suggest that the reason that you do so is because you recognise that the literal will not support your position. Thus you give your case away. You are not a literalist after all, only where it is not inconvenient. And that is why I objected to your suggesting that there was only one possible interpretation of Revelation 20. My interpretation there is equally as literalistic as yours. For while God can count, when He is speaking to men He speaks in terms that they would understand. And they would not understand a thousand literally. They had no conception of a literal one thousand. It was just a very large number. That was the literal meaning to them. You say that I must justify my contention that Revelation 20 is a recap of what has gone before. If you will look back at my first presentation you will find that that is precisely what I did. Incidentally the verb used of the sky is to 'roll up' like a scroll. That is much more than it being parted. It literally mean that the sky is longer spread out but bundled up in a roll. And it says of the mountains that they will be moved out of their place. Now I take all this literally as indicating the end of the world (as also in Revelation 20.11 - another recap) But I must ask myself, do you? Of course I appreciate that you cannot because of your views. You say that I should notice the references to 'after this --. But the question is, does that refer to the writer and his visions or does it refer to chronological sequence. I would suggest that it is the writer's movements and experiences that are in mind. You are happy to avoid seeing God as a bird. Good. But you then say we must demonstrate from the text what God intends us to know. Well I have done that for Revelation 6 (and for Revelation 20 when I commenced). That is what we all seek to do. But in the wider context we must sometimes do what you have done on Revelations 6. Recognise that symbolism MIGHT be involved. But we must not determine our use of symbolism simply in terms of what fits our position. We must do it in the light of the whole of Scripture. You will see symbolism where I do not. I will see picture language (symbolism is a loaded term) where you do not. But we should not therefore suggest that somehow one of us is more literal than the other. That was my argument in the first place. That we both see literal positions and positions which are based on picture language. It is necessary to use language in a way that people will understand. That is why the Old Testament prophets presented heavenly truths in terms of life on earth. It was the only thing that the people would understand. But they spoke better than they knew, as the New Testament makes clear. In fact if you carefully look at the language that you use you will be surprised how much of it is in fact picture language, and not literal at all. We are so used to it that we do not realise it. How boring it would be if we removed all picture language from our conversation. I do not want to convert you to my position. It is not the details that matter (neither of us can change what will happen) but underlying truth. All I ask is that you do not claim somehow to be 'more literal' than others when you turn to seeing things in picture language when it suits you. Best wishes and God bless you. It has been pleasant having a discussion with you. jonp | ||||||
4 | Still not convinced preterism is false | Matt 16:28 | Wild Olive Shoot | 183768 | ||
“I did not say that no one could count in the 1st century, only that counting beyond ten or twenty and calculating mathematically was beyond the vast majority, and with many their limitation would be counting to three.” That’s a very interesting thing you point out. Why, with so much mention of numbers and the fact that someone had to count, I wonder how limited they were. But then again, those of the first century, well the words probably weren’t meant for them since they couldn’t comprehend anyhow. I guess God inspired those to speak and write so only future generations could understand. Those of the first century were just meant to be confused. Matthew 14:19-21: 19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. 20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. 21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children. Who counted the loaves and fishes and baskets and people? I guess this was conveyed only for a more learned people. Deuteronomy 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. I would really hate to be the one getting the forty lashes while knowing I may get 50 because someone can’t count past three. But it was probably okay to break a command of God because you couldn’t count. Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Hope they had a calculator for this one. Leviticus 12:2-5: 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. 3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. 5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. Don’t even want to attempt to figure how they knew this. John 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken. Someone had to count the fish. Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: The good doctor may have been able to count to 40, but someone had to tell him it was forty. Now I’m no expert on the educational standing of first century people, but most couldn’t count past three??? What they do with the extra fingers? WOS |
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5 | Still not convinced preterism is false | Matt 16:28 | stjohn | 183773 | ||
Amen WOS, seems to me the trouble with math isn't in the 1st but the 21st century, all this talk about preterism is causing division peas stj |
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