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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The Sons of God in Genesis 6:1-4 | Genesis | The Disciple | 30743 | ||
Jesusman, Thank you for supporting alot of what I had said earlier, and what you said previous to that. Dare we read Jude 1:6,7 again? Lets do a less than exhaustive study... Let us start with vs 5 which is the beginning of this paragraph in question. v5- "But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." v6- "And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;" v7- "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vegence of eternal fire." Lets dig now and see what could be AN answer (not The) to the issue at hand. vs 5 - For sake of argument, I wont delve deeper than needed. We are agreed that this verse tells of something already known to the readers; those who did not believe were destroyed. Definitions are from Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. In order to reference in the Vines Dictionary, I need to read from KJV for this verse. 6a- "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation,..." "estate" - Pg 207 Notes (5) In Jude 6 'arche', (is defined) principality, Revised Version and KJV 'principality' According to Vines: Pg 488 Last paragraph (arche), In Jude 6, RV, it signifies, not the first estate of fallen angels (as KJV), but their authoritative power, "their own" indicating that which had been assigned to them by God, which they left, aspiring to prohibited conditions. See: Begin. Pg 58 B.Noun - Begin(arche) is defined as a verb - "to be first" 6b- "but left their own habitation,..." "habitation" Vines Dict: Pg 286 1. oiketerion, is used in Jude 6, of the heavenly region appointed by God as the dwelling place of the angels. Would this be a safe variation of v6 ? "And the angels who voluntarily decided to dismiss their authoritative position assigned by God, knowing full well of the prohibitive conditions. They left their dwelling place (heaven). He(God) had these angels reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." v7 - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner,..." KJV "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them IN A SIMILAR MANNER TO THESE..." NKJV In the NKJV vs6 ends with a semi-colon (;) and verse 7 begins, "as". A semi-colon tells us, co-ordinate clauses having a relationship in meaning not explicity stated are being seperated. I guess you can say, what was just stated is being defined a little bit better. Here in the Bible the writer is using S and G as a point of reference to what was just stated. In the KJV v7 starts out, "Even as" "As" simply defined. Same, just like. so vs7 tells us... "Just like S/G and the cities around them IN LIKE MANNER(KJV)...IN A SIMILAR MANNER TO THESE(NKJV)..." In the New American Standard Bible (NASB), vs7 reads, "Just as S/G and the cities around them, since they as in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." What may we see is being stated here? Did the angels in vs 6 knowing full well the outcome of their exploits leave their original place of authority and their home to partake of the flesh? Or have I "read into" the definitions as laid out by my Vine's Dictionary? In all the versions I have at my disposal(8) the cross references to vs 6 are all the same. 2Pet2:4 1Tim5:21 Job 1:6 Gen3:24 All have one thing in common...Angels. ...Lord dont let me convolute your story... *SHALOM* Discipled |
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2 | The Sons of God in Genesis 6:1-4 | Genesis | Jesusman | 30975 | ||
Hello, I appologize for waiting so long to reply. I have been going over the text in the greek. The context doesn't support your claims entirely. Let me clarify. First there is a pattern to the text of Jude 1:5-7. You have the comment in verse 5 stating that the reader should remember the following events and pay attention to them. Also in verse 5, you have the people of egypt mentioned, their unbelief, and the punishment given. Then we turn to verse 6. IN verse 6, you have the angels, their sin, which was leaving the natural domain, and the punishment, which is that they were chained up for the final judgement. Then you go to verse 7. You have sodom and gamorrah, then the cities surrounding them all listed. the sinful act was that of sexual immorality. The punishment was that of being destroyed. As you can see, there are three separate examples given. Now, for the phrase, "they in the same manner as these ...". If you were to follow the rules of greek grammer strictly, as you should, then it doesn't follow that this phrase is referring to the cities in relation to the angels. Here's why. First, the pattern I mentioned above. The pattern is that a group is mentioned, their sin is listed, their punishment, and the author goes on to the next group. Now what is important is that the author doesn't refer to the group of the previous verse specifically. If he did, then the people of egypt would have been referred to in one form or another in verse 6 as well. As we can see, they are not. Then we turn to the grammer itself. As you know, Greek doesn't follow the same rules of grammer as english, especially in matters of punctuation. Between sodom and gammorrah, all you have is "kai" or "and" in english. there is no other punctuation. However, between Sodom and Gammorah, and the "cities around them", there is punctuation, a coma. This is significant because it separates the two groups, and this separation follows throughout the rest of the verse. Then you have the nature of "toutos" or "these" in english, and the usages in contrasts and comparrisons. "Toutos" will usually refer to one of the groups previously identified earlier, and in matters of comparrison and contrast, there will usually be groups identified. This phrase is a comparrison. We also have two groups in the prior phrase being identified, and separated by punctuation. So, the true meaning of the phrase in question reads, "They (the cities around them), in the same manner as these (Sodom and Gammorrah)...". So, as you can see, the grammer doesn't follow. Jesusman |
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