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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | John Reformed | 34526 | ||
Dear Tim, I am sicerely gratified by your responses. I could probably spend the entire day joyfully exploring God's Word with you. I work out of my home however and must force myself back to the business of earning my daily bread. So if at times my communications seem brief or incomplete, please chalk it up to that. I have been reading R.L Dabneys paper on the 5 Points of Calvinism. You may find it by going to www.reformed.org. Click on Five Point of Calvinism found in the menue on the left side of page. Scroll down to Dabney's article. No need to read all 5 points just scroll to the heading Particular Redemption. God Bless, John |
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2 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | zach† | 34538 | ||
I just thought seeing how I initially asked this question, I would jump in here somewhere to add a few notes I compiled on this subject: I tend to side with Tim Moran's thoughts on this topic. So let me post the following for you viewing and feedback if I may. John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ( the Greek word "pas" is used for the word "every" in this verse, it is the same Greek word used for "all" in 2 Cor. 5:15 “he died for all” and all in my undersatnding NEVER, NEVER, EVER means some or a few. ) The above verse makes it plain that Jesus the true Light, lighteth what? Some men? Most men? No! Take a look at what the verse says. It says: HE LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD!!! Now does EVERY MAN mean EVERY MAN, or does it mean some men. 2 Corinthians 5:15 says: "he died for "all" If you look the word "all" up in the Greek as is used in this verse, and other verses, you find the word "pas" is used. The Greek word "pas" means, all, every, all men, everyone, whole, all manner of, everything, any, whosoever, anything, all things, each. So if I were to follow the logic of Reformed thinking that only some are saved and others are not, I would look to other verses using the Greek word "pas" and see if I can repalce it with the word "some or elect." Here are a few other verses in which the word "all" is found and in EACH and EVERY instance the Greek word used is "pas" which I gave a definition for above. Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (try replacing the word "all" here with the word "some", it doesn't work) Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (now I think you will really find it difficult to replace the word "all" in this verse with the word "some" ) Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, ( agian it would be disasterous to replace the word "all" in this verse with "some" ) 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (try substituting the word "all" as found here with the word "some." It can't be done) Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (can you substitute the words "some of these" for the words "These all" found here without making Scripture false? ) 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (finally do you believe you can substitute or replace the word "all" as found in this verse with the word "some") In each of the above verses the same Greek word "pas" is used, so to replace it in one verse would mean you have to replace it in all these verses. This is one of many very good reasons why I believe "Limited Atonement" is unBibical. The Term "Limited Atonement" Really Means Limited Love, Limited Grace of God, and So Slanders God, and Is Unscriptural First John 2:2 plainly says, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." No limited atonement there! |
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3 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 34558 | ||
Zach: Some of the very verses you cite would be disastrous in themselves if we were to understand that "all" meant "each and every." Take 1 Corinthians 15:22. Is every human truly made alive because of what Christ did? That seems to smack of universalism. The unrepentant atheist, the Muslim, the Hindu, and the cultist are all made alive in Christ? Matthew 9:26 is another example. With God all things are possible. Is it possible for God to lie? (Numbers 23:19) Clearly Jesus is not saying that God can sin or not be all powerful or not be omniscient or all-wise or perfect. As we can see, there are all sorts of qualified "all's" in Scripture. It is a leap in logic, however, to say, if one reasonably concludes from the context that "all" does not mean "each and every" in one case that one can indiscriminately dismiss this use in all cases (and by that I DO mean "each and every case"). Paul spends the first 2.5 chapters of Romans elaborating how indeed each and every human being has sinned and falls short of God's glory. However, he does not teach universalism, so any reference to ALL being saved cannot mean that every single human being will be in Heaven. Therefore, the following statement you made does not logically follow: 'In each of the above verses the same Greek word "pas" is used, so to replace it in one verse would mean you have to replace it in all these verses.' The term "limited atonement" (I prefer "particular redemption" myself to avoid misunderstanding) means that His saving grace is limited in its SCOPE, not in its power or efficacy. In other words, Christ's sinless life, death, and resurrection accomplished completely and totally everything that the Triune God intended it to accomplish. What slanders God, in my opinion, is any view which says that God doesn't ultimately get His own way in every way with His creation. --Joe! |
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4 | Is Limited Atonement Bibical? | NT general Archive 1 | zach† | 34568 | ||
Joe! Neither do I believe in universalism. However I do believe that in the verses i cited, all means all in these verses. And of course whenever the terms particular redemption or limited atonement is mentioned we then are given a denominations particular slant on Scripture. It is my person opinion that denominations divide, but Christ unites. Doctrinal difference between the various sects have existed as early in my reading since 1 Cor. Chapter 1 where Paul states: 1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (KJV) one says I'm Methodist, another says I'm Reformed, still another says I'm Pentecostal, was Christ divided, or were you baptized in the name of Calvin, or Wesley (my paraphrase of 1 Cor.1:12-13) (The zach paraphrase of 1 Cor. 1:12-13) I don't expect you to adopt my interpretation for your own, we can discuss it, and yet disagree. But just so you know, I cannot agree with the 5 points of Calvinism,. It's not that I haven't studied them in detail, I just find too much scripture that goes against that teaching. Please don't ask me which scripture. I have discussed this too often in the past with too many of the Reformed faith and have always found these discussions to be unproductive and unfruitful. And yes I do know all the verses they use to support what they believe. I have seen them all many times, and have considered each one of them without excluding any of them. I don't say that to be mean, or disrespectful but just to be open and honest. In Christ zach† |
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