Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Reformer Joe | 14111 | ||
Tim: Following my clarification of different views on free will, where is the biblical support that God's grace only makes salvation possible rather than makes salvation a reality for all who receive it? And the biggest question: what makes one person who receives God's prevenient grace trust in Christ and another who receives God's prevenient grace continue to reject him? Seems that in Arminian view, the former person would indeed have reason to boast, whether it be on the basis of his own goodness, or his intelligence, or his wisdom, or his clear-sightedness, or something. If anything in ourselves is required for God's grace to be salvific, even if it is only cooperating with His prevenient grace, then we do indeed have a reason to boast, and Paul was wrong. Calvinists do not take a few obscure words to try and "explain away" clear statements in Scripture. Calvinists realize that there are verses which are apparent contradictions when taken in isolation. However, when examined in the context of the passages in which they were written, the contradictions can easily be explained away. For example, in Romans 9-11 it is you who are trying to take straightforward statements such as 9:15 and say that God "really doesn't only show mercy to some and not others," despite the fact that almost anyone reading that without a predisposition to reject such a notion would come precisely to that conclusion. One has to ignore Pharoah's hardening of heart as an active choice on God's part. One has to ignore the fact that the very author of Romans was apparently not given a choice as to whether he was one of the elect or not (show me one shred of evidence in Acts 9 that points to Paul's free will in initiating his salvation). Despite your claim that it is Christ who was chosen/elect (same word in the Greek), God makes it very clear that it is a set of individuals who are chosen. Who does the choosing? Let's see: "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness" --Titus 1:1 " Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." --1 Peter 1:1-2 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven." --Mark 13:27 (Christ isn't gathering Himself here) "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you..." 1 Thessalonians 1:4 "So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience" Colossians 3:12 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." -- Thessalonians 2:13 "...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" Ephesians 1:4-5 Over and over again we see that: 1. God chooses. We do not see one NT passage which suggests that God chooses us because we choose him. Every time a form of the word eklegomai, God is the subject and one or more Christians are the direct object. Never is it used of humanity in general, and the very nature of the word "choose" implies that some are placed in a different category than others. Scripture makes this clear that is is not based on us (or we would have reason to boast), but rather on the wise counsel of God (Ephesians 1:11). It is the Arminian who seeks to "explain away" the clear statements of Scipture. You may accuse the Calvinist of insisting that "all" doesn't mean "all" in all cases (without indicating the contextual basis for his doing so), but it is you, Tim, who are guilty of insisting that "chosen by God" doesn't really mean "chosen by God," but rather "chosen by God because man really made the choice." --Joe! |
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2 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Morant61 | 14119 | ||
Greetings Joe! I understand where you are coming from my friend! However, none of the verses you listed ever say that God's choice will be restricted. Even, Rom. 9:15 simply says that God can (or some view it as a statement of God's nature) have mercy on whom He wants. But, where does it say He won't have mercy on all? Especially since Rom. 11:2 says He will. In the Potter passage in Romans 9, even there the complaint is that God showed His mercy to vessels of wrath. This is what I mean when I say that we ignore the clear passages. Calvin invented a doctrine of unconditional individual election, yet there isn't one single verse that clearly says God does such a thing. The "choice" passages you use are all written to Christians. It would be like me saying to you, "God loves us." Does that mean that God does not love non-Christians? Of course we are chosen in Him, we are part of the Body of Christ. Arminianism doesn't have a problem with this "contradiction." If being "chosen" is unconditional and irresistable, how do you explain John 6:70? Judas was chosen, yet He was lost! These posts are getting long! :-) I appreciate your comments and your interaction. The only bad thing about this topic and the forum is that it is hard to discuss complex issues in depth. But, at least we can learn more about the other views Scripture. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Reformer Joe | 14196 | ||
Tim: Judas was not chosen for salvation, but for the betrayal of Jesus. Calvin didn't invent the idea of effectual grace and unconditional election. Read Augustine. --Joe! |
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4 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Morant61 | 14222 | ||
Greetings Joe! Actually, I haven't read as much of Augustine as I should. I have read some, but it would be a good study to go back and read some more of his works. Well, at least we have narrowed this thread down some! :-) Let me ask you about Judas! I see a couple of reasons why I can't buy your statement about Judas. 1) The verse says that He chose all twelve. So, how can you distinguish between Judas and the rest? 2) Mark 13:20 uses this word to describe the "elect." So, why would it not have that meaning here? Thanks again for your peaceful spririt my friend! We may never see eye to eye on this issue, (which we both agree is an important issue) but we are still brothers in Christ. I have many friends and even family members who believe as you do. My father-in-law is an American Baptist pastor. I have even preached and taught at Baptist churches. Hopefully, this thread will illustrate to others that two people can disagree without being disagreeable. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Reformer Joe | 14360 | ||
Tim: 1) The part that says "yet one of you is a devil" is enough distinguishing for me. I think you agree that Jesus didn't select these disciples for salvation in this context. 2)Perhaps it is just late, but I don't understand the point of your question here. Pleas elaborate for me. --Joe! |
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6 | Are those He called always chosen? | Rom 8:30 | Morant61 | 14374 | ||
Hi Joe! I was just trying to clarify why we limit the word "eklegomai" in John 6:70 to the call to be an apostle, while in Mark 13:20 it refers to salvation. I have heard both views before (Apostle or Salvation. I'm not sure which one I think is more likely. I lean toward it referring to salvation (not because I'm Arminian), because the context of the passage has to do with eternal life. But, I can see the other side as well. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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