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NASB | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ [by faith], we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ an advocate or promoter of our sin? Certainly not! |
Bible Question:
continued from part 1: Later you write: "So while God did not MAKE Satan rebel or Adam sin (Chapter III of WCF states "nor was violence offered to the will of the creatures")...." I know that is what the Westminster Confession of Faith says (and, again, I think that even those in the Arminian camp would agree with that phrase). What I don't understand is how the authors of that document (and nearly 400 years worth of their adherants... and those who came before them and held the same view) can put those two statements together and not see them as self-contradictory. How can God unchangeably predetermine (predestinate) every detail of history (including sin) before any of it began, and still not be the author (source, cause, designer) of sin? I must say, I am quite confused by one thing that you wrote: "Every move that we make by our own free will..." Was this reference to free will a deliberate choice of words on your part or was it not meant in a literal way (ie. with a technical, theological meaning)? I had understood, and maybe wrongly so, that the strongly Reformed view says that we do not have any such thing, and that the closest thing that humans have had to a free will was in Adam and Eve prior to the Fall (although, as is already clear, I am quite unsure how the idea of free will even before the Fall fits side by side with the strongly Reformed view of predestination). In closing, you wrote: "I see nothing in your comments that presents a more particular problem for Calvinists than it does for Arminians who must also explain that God created sinners, and is not the author of sin." There is no doubt that this issue does need to be explained. If God is who He says He is (namely, in the context of our discussion, that He is Holy), then there must be some explanation for the fact that there is sin in the world. I do not pretend to have all the answers to this (or even most of them... maybe not even a few of them!). And certainly I have some questions that I would like to ask of those holding to a strongly Arminian point of view as well. But those will undoubtedly come up in another thread. What I am hoping to determine, at least tentatively, by starting this particular discussion is whether or not this really is a contradiction within the strongly Reformed view, or if I perceive it that way because of some lack of understanding on my part. If it is the latter, I am afraid that the lack of understanding is still there. I am *thoroughly* enjoying our discussion! Please don't give up on me because I keep bringing our discussion back to what seems to me to be the crux of the issue. Have a very good day. Bob |
Bible Answer: Bob: It is a bit of an oversimplification to say that Calvinists do not believe that man has free will. What Calvinists state is that after the fall, man does indeed have free will, but his nature is corrupted by the fall in such a way that whatever his choices will be, he will not choose to do anything that is pleasing to God; he cannot submit to God's law, as Romans 8:7-9 explicitly states. For example, I was born a sinner. However, that sinful nature never manifested itself in the form of homosexual acts, murder, or building graven images and worshiping them. I have never chosen to engage in such activities. However, I have lied and I have acted selfishly a countless number of times. Therefore, while I have rejected some actual sins, before my conversion there was not the slightest inclination to act for good with the motive of giving glory to God. It took the Holy Spirit's regeneration, quickening my spiritual deadness before I could even place my trust in Christ for the forgiveness of my sins. Therefore, it is most correct to say that our wills are damaged as a result of the Fall's curse, rather than non-existent. Maybe the best way to sum up "decree" is merely God stating, "This will happen." I recently read a short part of one of John Piper's books which dealt with a similar problem with regard to God's sovereign decree: the question, "Why should I pray, then, if all is decreed?" Piper framed it in the context of a conversation between two individuals, with one asking why one should pray if God has already determined what would happen. The basic response (and this is a very rough paraphrase) was that the God who knew what He would do also knew that the praying person would be praying for it. Therefore, God knew that a person in his free will would pray for something, and he would decide to work in accordance with that prayer. The other man responded by saying something along the lines of "So, if you didn't pray, it wouldn't have happened." The praying person agreed, which thoroughly confused his challenger. But if that were the case, he continued, then God also knew from eternity past that he wouldn't pray. He compared it to a sovereign decree that someone would die from a bullet wound. If there were no bullet, the man wouldn't die from a bullet wound. The fact is, however, that because it is decreed, there WILL be a bullet coming from somewhere. God doesn't fire the shot, but He says, "It will happen." The same could hold true for evangelism. Why evangelize?, people say to Calvinists. One, because God told us to, and two, God sovereignly governs the universe so that many of his elect will come across the paths of believers who will share their faith. Epehesians 2:10 illustrates this quite well, that God arranges before hand our good works, so that we will walk in them. While it is our will that we do them, God also has sovereignly prepared them beforehand. Same holds true for sin, in the view of Calvinists. Sin is the expression of man's will. God knows that human beings (especially the unregenerate) will sin. There is no question that they will sin. God places individuals in situations where their sinfulness will find expression in a way that looking back on it from the end of human history, God's sovereign plan will be clearly seen. This is demonstrated all throughout Scripture.God hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he will not repent. In fact, he gets more harsh, so that even after he has relented after his first born dies, he still goes chasing after the nation of Israel. God decrees that the military buildups of Assyria and Babylon will occur to test and judge His own people. He ordains that His prophets will die horrible deaths despite following Him. He decrees that His only begotten Son will die for me, and that the Pharisees would be the one to do it, and that one of the Twelve would be the one to betray Him. Therefore, I would conclude that "God's decree" is that from eternity past, God delared what would happen, what He would do Himself, what He would allow, and what He would prevent, so that He would be glorified in all things (Romans 8:28). God, by creating sinners, decreed that sin would occur as he would permit, for His glory. The sinful nature is ours, and we have sinful intents, but God directs through circumstance and other means how and when those sinful intents will be manifested. --Joe! |