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NASB | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ [by faith], we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ an advocate or promoter of our sin? Certainly not! |
Bible Question (short): Part 2 of 2: How can both be true? |
Question (full): continued from part 1: Later you write: "So while God did not MAKE Satan rebel or Adam sin (Chapter III of WCF states "nor was violence offered to the will of the creatures")...." I know that is what the Westminster Confession of Faith says (and, again, I think that even those in the Arminian camp would agree with that phrase). What I don't understand is how the authors of that document (and nearly 400 years worth of their adherants... and those who came before them and held the same view) can put those two statements together and not see them as self-contradictory. How can God unchangeably predetermine (predestinate) every detail of history (including sin) before any of it began, and still not be the author (source, cause, designer) of sin? I must say, I am quite confused by one thing that you wrote: "Every move that we make by our own free will..." Was this reference to free will a deliberate choice of words on your part or was it not meant in a literal way (ie. with a technical, theological meaning)? I had understood, and maybe wrongly so, that the strongly Reformed view says that we do not have any such thing, and that the closest thing that humans have had to a free will was in Adam and Eve prior to the Fall (although, as is already clear, I am quite unsure how the idea of free will even before the Fall fits side by side with the strongly Reformed view of predestination). In closing, you wrote: "I see nothing in your comments that presents a more particular problem for Calvinists than it does for Arminians who must also explain that God created sinners, and is not the author of sin." There is no doubt that this issue does need to be explained. If God is who He says He is (namely, in the context of our discussion, that He is Holy), then there must be some explanation for the fact that there is sin in the world. I do not pretend to have all the answers to this (or even most of them... maybe not even a few of them!). And certainly I have some questions that I would like to ask of those holding to a strongly Arminian point of view as well. But those will undoubtedly come up in another thread. What I am hoping to determine, at least tentatively, by starting this particular discussion is whether or not this really is a contradiction within the strongly Reformed view, or if I perceive it that way because of some lack of understanding on my part. If it is the latter, I am afraid that the lack of understanding is still there. I am *thoroughly* enjoying our discussion! Please don't give up on me because I keep bringing our discussion back to what seems to me to be the crux of the issue. Have a very good day. Bob |