Prior Book | Prior Chapter | Prior Verse | Next Verse | Next Chapter | Next Book | Viewing NASB and Amplified 2015 | |
NASB | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ [by faith], we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ an advocate or promoter of our sin? Certainly not! |
Bible Question (short): All of God's decree is not predestined? |
Question (full): Good day Joe, As always, its good to hear from you again. You're making me have to work at this, and that is a good thing. One thing though... you wrote, "we are heading into some pretty deep philosophical waters..." Man! If we are only heading into deep waters now, then I am in *serious* trouble because I have been treading water for a long time now!! In fact, I have been treading water since I jumped into this with the initial question. ;) More seriously, you wrote: "I don't consider "decree" and "predestination" to be synonymous." OK... I guess we need to talk a little more here about the use and meaning of what seem to be very technical terms for you because I have certainly understood them to have essentially the same meaning. You wrote: "Biblically, the term [predestination] is used to describe the eternal destiny of those whom He regenerates..." I think you are correct. The primary use of this word *is* in connection with the eternal destiny of believers. But, by pointing that out in this context, are you suggesting that the *only* thing God has predestined is the glorification of believers? Surely not. What real difference(s) is(are) there between the concept of "God's sovereign will" which He has decreed and the concept of predestination? Or, using the definition that we accepted, what real difference(s) is(are) there between the concept of "God's predetermined, unchangeable plan" which He decreed and the concept of predestination? In essence, they are the same thing. At most, or so it seems to me, the biggest difference between the action of God decreeing and the action of God predestinating is that decreeing is God actually *stating* or *declaring* that which He has predestined (predetermined, decided ahead of time). Am I missing something here? One other point: you spent a fair bit of time and effort in your post "examine[ing] the notion that God limits our freedom without excusing us from the blame for our sin..." I have no problem the notion of "limited freedom" as long as there is still at least some measure of *real* freedom (meaning both the ability and the opportunity to make a choice or exercise will). Humans have never had *complete* freedom, and, in fact, not even God has truly *complete* freedom in His choices as He is limited by His character. For example, God's freedom is limited in that He does not have the choice to lie about something, or do anything else that would contravene His character. Those choices are not available to Him. The point that I was trying to make in my previous post, though, is that if every detail of history (ie. everything that comes to pass in time) is predetermined (decreed, ordained, predestined, decided) by God before any of them actually happened, then 1) that doesn't leave *any* room for freedom to choose on the part of the creatures (as the ability and/or opportunity to choose have not only been limited, but removed) and that 2) this makes God the author (cause, source, originator, predestinator) of every sin that ever has or ever will be committed. Hmmm...I guess that is *2* points, isn't it? And I didn't state the first one very clearly in my previous post. Sorry about that. Thank you again for the time and effort that you are putting into discussing this with me. Again, I am eagerly looking forward to your reply. Have a very good day. Bob |