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NASB | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ [by faith], we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ an advocate or promoter of our sin? Certainly not! |
Bible Question:
Hello Joe, Thank you again for your willingness to discuss this with me logically! It really is appreciated! I have a couple of questions from this posting; one that is primary and one that would be supplemental. In your opening paragraph, you write: "It is more than the case of him allowing sin; you are correct." Ok. I'm glad we have that squared away. In that same opening paragraph, you wrote: "I guess the hardest part about the Reformed view to accept from our finite perspective is the idea that God pre-determined that sin would (temporarily) be a part of His grand design. He actually decreed that sin would exist on the earth by virtue of His creation of Lucifer and a human couple he knew would succumb to Satan's treachery." My primary question then is this: are you actually saying here that you believe God is the author, the source, the cause of sin? Forgive me if I am not understanding you correctly, but that is what this sounds like. And if I am not understanding you correctly, please help me to see whatever it is that I am missing! That, then brings me to my supplemental question. At several points in your post, you mention the responsibility, blame, and guilt of the sinner. My supplemental question, which assumes that I have understood you correctly above, is this: If God has pre-determined every infitessimal detail of history, which must obviously include sin, then how can those individuals who commit those predetermined sins be held responsible for them? Responsibility, if I understand it correctly, implies the ability to exercise at least some measure will. Will, again if I understand it correctly, requires two things: the *ability* to make a choice and the *opportunity* to make a choice. If either of those two things are removed in any given situation, then the exercise of will is also removed. Would that not also mean that responsibility and guilt have also been removed? If you are meaning that God is the cause of sin, then you are quite right in saying that this would be the hardest thing to accept in the reformed point of view. For me, I think it would be impossible to accept, and I say that for two reasons that I can think of immediately, and both of them have to do with what I understand of the character of God. The first reason is that it seems to fly in the face of God's holiness. If God is holy (and I am quite sure that we are both completely conviced that He is!), then it seems completely contradictory (not just paradoxical!) to suggest that He is also the author (cause, source) of sin. The second reason is that it seems to fly in the face of God's justice. If God is just (and, again, I am quite sure that we are both completely conviced that He is!), then it seems completely contradictory (again, not just paradoxical!) to suggest that He would hold sinners responsible for things over which they neither the ability nor the opportunity to change. How have you intellectually worked your way through or around these issues? Thank you again for your patience with me in this, Joe. I have found our dialogue to be stimulating and pleasant. And I do need to get some of this stuff sorted out in my own mind. Thanks! Bob |
Bible Answer: Bob: In order to be more clear, I am going to quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith, one of the important documents reflecting the Reformed view. This is the first section of Chapter III, entitled "Of God's Eternal Decree": "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." So we see two important things right away: 1. ALL things are ordained by God. 2. God is NOT the author of sin. God not only foreknows sin; he allows sin to exist and uses it ultimately for His glory. You would agree that nothing happens without God allowing it, correct? I guess what differentiates the Reformed view from others is that rather than merely saying God's ultimate purposes are accomplished DESPITE the sinful rebellion of His creation, the Reformed theologian will state emphatically that God weaves the rebellion of man in the tapestry of His overall plan. However, man is the CAUSE of man's sin, not God. Regarding the human will, permit me to quote again from the WCF, from Chapter IX, "Of Free Will": ************************ II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it. III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ************************ Therefore the Reformed view agrees with Scripture that while man was created with the ability to please God, that was lost in the Fall for Adam and all of his natural descendants. Romans 8:7-9 demonstrates that the unregenerate human is completely incapable of pleasing God. God did not cause this sinfulness, either; it proceeds from the curse which resulted from Adam's sin (Genesis 3). Another place where we can see this illustrated is the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis. After his entire ordeal from being sold into slavery, to being framed for sexual assault, to spending years in prison unjustly, to rising to the top of the political ladder in Egypt, he had this to say to his brothers: "Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt." --Genesis 45:8 Joseph says that GOD sent him to Egypt, but it was by means of the sinful actions of his brothers. This mans that God ordained it to happen, but didn't author the sin. How would you interpret this verse otherwise? Man's sin was part of God's decree. Joseph repeats the same idea again in the last chapter: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." --Genesis 50:20 There is no mistaking that God MEANT it to happen, not merely that he allowed it to occur and "cleaned up the mess" for His glory and His purposes. Again, he did not cause the sinful attitudes of the brothers, but since the original intent was to kill Joseph, it isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that God redirected that motive through Reuben. On last thing: You wrote, "If God has pre-determined every infitessimal detail of history, which must obviously include sin, then how can those individuals who commit those predetermined sins be held responsible for them?" Rather than answer myself, I will let the apostle Paul do the talking: "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" Romans 9:19-21 Just out of curiosity, how would you work the verses here and in my other posts into another framework. Where do you stand on the reconciliation of God's sovereignty and man's sin? --Joe! |