Prior Book | Prior Chapter | Prior Verse | Next Verse | Next Chapter | Next Book | Viewing NASB and Amplified 2015 | |
NASB | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ [by faith], we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ an advocate or promoter of our sin? Certainly not! |
Bible Question:
Good day Joe, As always, its good to hear from you again. You're making me have to work at this, and that is a good thing. One thing though... you wrote, "we are heading into some pretty deep philosophical waters..." Man! If we are only heading into deep waters now, then I am in *serious* trouble because I have been treading water for a long time now!! In fact, I have been treading water since I jumped into this with the initial question. ;) More seriously, you wrote: "I don't consider "decree" and "predestination" to be synonymous." OK... I guess we need to talk a little more here about the use and meaning of what seem to be very technical terms for you because I have certainly understood them to have essentially the same meaning. You wrote: "Biblically, the term [predestination] is used to describe the eternal destiny of those whom He regenerates..." I think you are correct. The primary use of this word *is* in connection with the eternal destiny of believers. But, by pointing that out in this context, are you suggesting that the *only* thing God has predestined is the glorification of believers? Surely not. What real difference(s) is(are) there between the concept of "God's sovereign will" which He has decreed and the concept of predestination? Or, using the definition that we accepted, what real difference(s) is(are) there between the concept of "God's predetermined, unchangeable plan" which He decreed and the concept of predestination? In essence, they are the same thing. At most, or so it seems to me, the biggest difference between the action of God decreeing and the action of God predestinating is that decreeing is God actually *stating* or *declaring* that which He has predestined (predetermined, decided ahead of time). Am I missing something here? One other point: you spent a fair bit of time and effort in your post "examine[ing] the notion that God limits our freedom without excusing us from the blame for our sin..." I have no problem the notion of "limited freedom" as long as there is still at least some measure of *real* freedom (meaning both the ability and the opportunity to make a choice or exercise will). Humans have never had *complete* freedom, and, in fact, not even God has truly *complete* freedom in His choices as He is limited by His character. For example, God's freedom is limited in that He does not have the choice to lie about something, or do anything else that would contravene His character. Those choices are not available to Him. The point that I was trying to make in my previous post, though, is that if every detail of history (ie. everything that comes to pass in time) is predetermined (decreed, ordained, predestined, decided) by God before any of them actually happened, then 1) that doesn't leave *any* room for freedom to choose on the part of the creatures (as the ability and/or opportunity to choose have not only been limited, but removed) and that 2) this makes God the author (cause, source, originator, predestinator) of every sin that ever has or ever will be committed. Hmmm...I guess that is *2* points, isn't it? And I didn't state the first one very clearly in my previous post. Sorry about that. Thank you again for the time and effort that you are putting into discussing this with me. Again, I am eagerly looking forward to your reply. Have a very good day. Bob |
Bible Answer: Bob: What did you think of my view that the intentions of man are the source of sin rather than the way in which those intentions are carried out? While God does not control our wills, he does limit the way in which the individual wills of humans can express themselves. Therefore, by sovereignly placing us in various times and places in human history, and by limiting and extending our sphere of influence, and by means of such tools as divine interaction and human interaction and circumstances and a whole host of other things we can't even begin to wrap our minds around, God controls the manifestation of the sinfulness in our hearts. There is much in the Bible that supports the idea that the sin of humans is not merely the actions themselves, but the sinfulness that exists in the mind/heart: "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit." --Matthew 7:17-18 In Matthew 5, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says that those who hate their brother have committed murder in their hearts, and those who lust after a woman have committed adultery in their hearts. If God limits my opportunity to have sex with a woman who is not my wife, that does not mean that the lustful intention is not there, and therefore, the sin already exists. If I do indeed commit adultery with my body rather than just my heart, that is an outward expression of MY sinful intentions, but obviously it is something that God has incorporated into His sovereign plan, because it occurs. God did not tempt me; God did not place the evil desire in my heart; God did not encourage me. However, if I am an adulterer, God brought the woman across my path in the first place, controlled the circumstances which allowed us the time to develop whatever relationship there would be, controlled the circumstances which allowed us the opportunity to find the secluded spot to commit our sin, and he didn't prevent us from acting out our sinful desires. Again, the desires are ours, the sin we commit is ours, but it is God who controlled all external circumstances which paved the path to the adultery. This brings to mind another good example. After the Bathsheba incident, God said to David (through the prophet Nathan): "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'" --2 Samuel 12:11-12 Here we see that God "will raise up evil" from within David's own household to dishonor him the same way that he dishonored Uriah. God says specifically that this is what he WILL do, not what may happen as a result. He gives specifics on how this will occur and who will witness it. In other words, God decrees it. And the decree is fulfilled in a few chapters with his son Absolom: "Then Absalom said to Ahithophel, 'Give your advice. What shall we do?' Ahithophel said to Absalom, 'Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; then all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father. The hands of all who are with you will also be strengthened.' So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel." --2 Samuel 16:20-22 We can conclude the following from this part of Scripture: 1. David's sin with Bathsheba and the sin of Absolom are interrelated, namely, that the latter is judgment upon David for the former. 2. God did not "make" Absolom sin. He was led into his sin by his own rebellion against David and directed by the advice of Ahithophel. 3. God said it would happen, and it did. His decree was for evil to befall David. How else could we put these two passages side by side and conclude that God did not decree that the evil would occur, and that it was decreed to serve God's purposes? Absolom's sinful intent was already present, and God directed that, providing the circumstances so that Nathan's prophecy would come true at the hands of Absolom. What do you think? --Joe! |