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NASB | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ [by faith], we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ an advocate or promoter of our sin? Certainly not! |
Bible Question:
Good day Joe, I'm sorry; I thought that we had achieved a common understanding of just what the words "decree" (as used by Spurgeon) and "ordain" (as used in the Westminster Confession of Faith) were actually intending. But it seems I have not understood you clearly. Initially, you wrote (Mon 08/20/01, 6:30am): "I guess the hardest part about the Reformed view to accept from our finite perspective is the idea that God pre-determined that sin would (temporarily) be a part of His grand design. It is more than the case of him allowing sin; you are correct. He actually decreed that sin would exist on the earth...." I had taken that to mean that you agreed that the concept of decreeing something and allowing something were, in fact, substantially different things; that the words really speak of different things. I need to sort out some of these terms here that seem to a some what technical meaning for you from the way you have used them. Maybe this will help me to understand your view better. Certainly it will help us to communicate better! In this post, you use the phrase "God's sovereign will" a couple of times. By this, do you mean "God's predetermined, unchangeable plan which includes everything that comes to pass in time?" I ask that question because that is what I think you are meaning by the use of that phrase, and yet you explain it by saying that it (and I quote): "includes everything that He either actively engages in or actively permits to occur. Both fall under the category of 'decree,' and both were ordained from eternity past" How does the concept of God "actively permitting" something fit into the concept of God "absolutely predetermining" every detail of history before any of it began? As I understand it, the concept of God "actively permitting" something must mean that there was *real* choice available (ie. that there really was both the *ability* to choose and the *opportunity* to choose), and that, although God would certainly have known what the choice(s) would be, He did not pre-destinate what those choices would be. I hope I am making this clear. What I don't understand is how you can speak of God's action of predestination to include God allowing or permitting. As I understand those two things, they are mutually exclusive; that is, they cannot both be true regarding a particular decision made by one of His creatures. It must be one *or* the other. If God predestinates that a certain creature will make a particular decision (or choice) at particular point in history, then there is no permitting or allowing involved; there is not *really* the ability or the opportunity for that creature to choose anthing other than what God predestined them to choose. For who can resist the will of God? (There is Rom. 9:19 again.) The answer can only be "no one!" What am I missing here? How is it that you seem to be able to put those two things together (that one is even actually a part or subset of the other!) and not find that difficult (or even impossible!)? Help me understand this! I am fully convinced that God has the ability to predestinate anything and everything He wants to. It is within His power to have predestinated every detail of history. But if He did, and if there is sin in the world, then God is also the author (source, cause, designer, the predestinator) of every sin that has ever been committed or ever will be. I must say that I find that to be a *most* disturbing thought! As I have for each of the last several days, I am eagerly looking forward to your reply. Have a very good day. Bob |
Bible Answer: Bob: You wrote: "In this post, you use the phrase "God's sovereign will" a couple of times. By this, do you mean 'God's predetermined, unchangeable plan which includes everything that comes to pass in time?'" I do. You also wrote: "How does the concept of God "actively permitting" something fit into the concept of God "absolutely predetermining" every detail of history before any of it began? As I understand it, the concept of God "actively permitting" something must mean that there was *real* choice available (ie. that there really was both the *ability* to choose and the *opportunity* to choose), and that, although God would certainly have known what the choice(s) would be, He did not pre-destinate what those choices would be." I don't consider "decree" and "predestination" to be synonymous. Predestination, in my view, is the element of decree which reflects what God will actually do Himself. Biblically, the term is used to describe the eternal destiny of those whom He regenerates, and that is wholly a work of God in the Reformed view. Of course, we are heading into some pretty deep philosophical waters when we start to discuss God's choices and our choices with relationship to time, and grasping all the nuances of that could very well be out of our reach. Perhaps one good way to examine the notion that God limits our freedom without excusing us from the blame for our sin is to examine sin from the perspective of human nature. Human beings are sinful by nature; EVERYTHING a non-Christian person will do will be displeasing to God, simply because the unregenerate are slaves to sin and acting in accordance with their nature. this is the idea of total depravity. There is not one fiber of our unsaved selves that is not corrupted by the Fall. In this sense, the unregenerate cannot help but sin. Therefore, since God allows the existence of humanity, there can be no question that he allows humans to sin. Sinners are what we all once were by our very nature. What God does control, however, is how that sin finds expression (i.e how that sin is carried out). In my limited perspective, it would seem that he could do that in several ways. Simply denying a particular human's access to opportunity would not change the fact that he will sin, but it will control how he will sin. For example, if I were a misanthropic person who wanted to destroy humanity, God could take that desire within me and use it ultimately for His glory without putting in my hands the political and/or technological power to accomplish my desires. I am still the one sinning, but God controls how and when I am able to exercise what I want to do. Another way he actively directs the "flow of sin," so to speak, is through direct suggestion. god knows that Satan is bent on destruction and will use any opportunity he can get to bring ruin to God's creation. Why, then, does God say to him, "Have you considered my servant Job?"? God did not suggest that Satan do anything to Job, but knowing Satan's nature and voltitional bent toward eveil, he pointed him in the direction of Job without authoring the destruction that Satan would bring upon him. Circumstances contribute to how sin is expressed as well, and circumstances are controlled by God. Circumstances by their very nature limit our ability and opportunity, not to BE sinful (as that is a given), but HOW we sin. Therefore, we do not have unlimited choices about the manner in which we will sin, by virtue of the limitations and circumstances in which God has placed us. However, God, knowing our hearts from eternity past, and our will and determination to sin, has already determined how, when and where we will be able to exercise that will to sin, all for his glory. Again, the sin comes from our fallen nature, but it is God who has decided "how much rope" and even "what rope" to give us. --Joe! |